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Compare C1 and C2 with me, please.

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Compare C1 and C2 with me, please.

Postby Mr. Birger on Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:24 am

Now I've tested and checked after C1 errors, since there are no C2 errors on any disc, on my Verbatim 16-24x CD-RW discs (made by Mitsubishi) and some bad (I thougt) CD-R discs from Memorex (made by Ritek).

What I'm curious about is this. How many C1 errors is normal to have on avarage with CDSpeed on a CD-RW disc?

I want to know since my good (?) Verbatim CD-RWs gives me an average error rate of 5.63 on my Lite-On 52327s with Firmware QS0B and an error rate of 6.45 with Firmware QS0C while my bad (?) Memorex CD-R discs only give me an error rate of 0.15

When I checked after C1 errors I used CDSpeed 2.0.11.4
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Postby RJW on Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:35 pm

Keep in mind that cd-rw's are a lot harder to read and cause a lot more trouble when read and report higher errors as cd-r's.
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Postby burninfool on Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:47 pm

Use KProbe,it's more accurate.
I consider a good disc if I get less then:
C1-20max,2000total,2.5%avg
C2-0,0,0

I consider an excellent disc if I get less then:
C1-10max,1000total,1%avg
C2-0,0,0

When using KProbe,etc make sure you don't have any programs running in the background and do the test 3 times and take an average.
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Postby Mr. Birger on Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:31 pm

RJW, yes I know about that a CD-RW disc has a lot lesser reflection rate and all that than a normal CD that you can buy in a store but that's not important here, I just want to know what kind of error rate you folks get on a CD-RW disc so that I have something to compare with.

burninfool, when I used KProbe 1.1.26 I got about the same results as with CDSpeed 2.0.11.4.
Granted, I didn't run the test 3 times and took an average.

But hey, please give me your "error-score" so I know what kind of level the errors can be on with a CD-RW disc to be considered good or normal.
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Postby MediumRare on Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:36 pm

Mr. Birger wrote:when I used KProbe 1.1.26 I got about the same results as with CDSpeed 2.0.11.4.
Granted, I didn't run the test 3 times and took an average.

You'll find pretty well the same numbers with KProbe, CD Doctor and CDSpeed for C1 on a LiteOn drive- they all report what the drive sends them. So pick the tool you like. I prefer KProbe because you have more influence on scanning speed and presentation of results. There's no percentage in repeating the tests unless you overloaded your system with something else :wink: during the scan (you'll never get identical numbers anyway- variations of 10% on CD's are fully normal).

The numbers you reported for Verbatim agree with what I've been getting, C1 ave/max ca. 7/80 (for 24x burns), 4/20 at 16x. Sometimes you'll get lower values after a full erase. Also, the scanning speed affects results, of course.

Would you post the ATIP for those Memorex/RiTEKs please?

G
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Postby Mr. Birger on Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:24 am

MediumRare, you wanted the ATIP info on my Memorex CD-R discs but now I may be a real lamer because I don't know what ATIP means so if you could explain that to me it would be nice.

Anyway, I could give you all the info that SmartBurn gives me about the disc to start with.

CD-R brand: Memorex Print CD-R 700 Mb 1x - 24x
Disc Type = CDR
Material = Phthalocyanine
Lead In = 97:15:17
Lead Out = 79:59:73
Nominal Capacity = 702.83MB
Manufacturer Maybe = RiTEK Corporation
SMART-BURN Speed Limit = 24X (Write)

You wrote that the scanning speed could affect the results and I always do my scanning in the maximum speed (52x), so now I'm a bit curious on what speed you would recommend me to use when I scan my discs? Is 32x a good choice?

Now to something else about my C1 results.

First I took a new and unused Verbatim 16x - 24x disc and recorded a lot of files on it so it became full and then I checked for C1 errors and got an average result of 4.48
After that I upgraded my Firmware from QS0B to QS0C, erased the disc and recorded the same files on the disc again with the following result of the C1 errors, average result 6.45.

Then I became disappointed and put back Firmware QS0B again and erased the disc and recorded on it yet another time and thought I would get an C1 error rate of 4.48 again but I didn't. Now it stayed on 5.63.

Do you think that it's becuse of my Firmware changes that I have got moore errors or the fact that it was an unused CD-RW disc I used on my first scan and a used disc that I used on my last scan?
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Postby MediumRare on Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:25 am

Mr. Birger wrote:I don't know what ATIP means so if you could explain that to me it would be nice.

ATIP is an acronym for "Absolute Time In Pregroove" but is usually just used as a short handle for essentially the information you posted from SmartBurn. There are various tools that will give you this info (including CDSpeed), but SmartBurn is fine.

Incidentally, an average C1=0.15 is pretty well as good as it gets for CDRs (better than most pressed disks!). Did you burn these disks at 24x?

Have a look at the Media Compatibility Thread for more results. TheWizard uses CDSpeed surface scans as a test criterion, but a lot of people post C1 rates as well when they are available (often with scan graphics).

Mr. Birger wrote:I'm a bit curious on what speed you would recommend me to use when I scan my discs? Is 32x a good choice?

That's a question of your testing philosophy. Some people like to scan at constant 8x, I usually scan at max speed (as you did) because I know that things can only get better at lower reading speeds. :) Keep in mind, though, that the maximum reading speed of CD-RWs is lower than for CD-Rs. Also, the contents may affect the reading speed: LiteOn drives read VCDs at 32x max.

Mr. Birger wrote:Do you think that it's becuse of my Firmware changes that I have got moore errors or the fact that it was an unused CD-RW disc I used on my first scan and a used disc that I used on my last scan?

There is a "first time" effect with rewritable media. Have a look at these threads for more on this and further RW-results:
Verbatim Ultra Speed CD-RW write quality question
New firmware for Liteon 48246S

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Postby RJW on Thu Jan 08, 2004 9:31 am

CD-RW's have less reflectivity and normally a much higher jitter and are by these means most times a lot harder to read.
Most older drives for that reason read cd-rw's a lot slower.
I have some old drives over here which are 40x drives for cd-roms.
And can reach this speeds with good cd-r's with cd-rw's however there limited to 4x clv reading and are quite troublesome. Just to give you a idea.

Now as soon as I got my Lite On 48246 back I will see what I find for
cd-rw's
Do some cascading and some other stuff.

The main problem for me here is Lite On. Which makes drives that do not survive that long (at least in my area) and then take months to replace it. (Waiting arround 10 weeks now for my replacement drive!)
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Postby Mr. Birger on Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:47 am

MediumRare, you wondered if I have burnt my Memorex CD-R discs at 24x and on that I have to say no, I cheated.
Cheated means that I have a "philosophy" about at what speed I can use as a max and that "philosophy" goes like this.

Never burn at the rated max speed of a disc, use only half of that speed or you would be stretching it.

That means that on a 48x disc I only burn in 24x and on the Memorex disc I made to check how many C1 errors I would get I burnt in 12x

So the answer to your question is no, I burnt them in 12x

Btw, on the Verbatim CD-RW disc I have used and spoked of before I burnt in 16x since I can't choose 12x on that disc.
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Postby Mr. Birger on Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:36 am

MediumRare, hope you see this post.

Since you seems to be a nice man that knows what you speak about I got another question for you now.

Earlier I wrote that I have used a Memorex (made by Ritek) CD-R disc that have given me an error rate of 0.15 and now I have used another one of those Memorex discs and now I got an error rate of 0.59.
It's not a big difference but I wonder now if that increase of 0.44 is normal between the discs or if it's because (as I suspected) that the Memorex discs is of a little lesser quality than say, Fuji discs made by Taiyo Yuden?

And if the 0.44 increase of C1 errors is not normal between the discs, is 0.44 a BIG difference?
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Postby MediumRare on Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:42 am

Your Memorex discs seem to be somewhat older- 24x media isn't made anymore. I've never used Memorex myself- mainly because you don't know what media you're getting. A quick look at InstantInfo show that they've used (among others) RiTEK, Prodisc, Hi-SPACE/MPO.

I've found some variation of quality within a spindle or 10-pack. For a particularly crass case, see a particular box of Verbatim DL/CMCs, table here (I hate CMC :evil:). I recently burned a small series of identical discs on 2 types of quality media (Fuji/RiTEK and Verbatim DLP/MC) and found some variation in the average C1- difference of ca. 0.2 - 0.4. There was a correlation with the serial number stamped on the disc.

The difference of C1(ave) = 0.15/0.59 you're seeing is nothing to worry about. C1(ave) of 1 or lower is really excellent. Higher average values are OK too if there isn't a pronounced peak somewhere. I have some discs with C1 ave ca. 15 that are perfectly OK. If I have inportant data on something like this, though, I'll check it occasionally with KProbe and copy it if it starts to deteriorate.

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(Post no. 500 :D)
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:51 pm

MediumRare wrote:(Post no. 500 :D)

congratulations! :P
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Postby RJW on Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:52 am

Hmm I finally got a 52327 Lite On as a replacement so I soon will fir it up and check what error levels it finds on my rewritables. Now I just hope that this Lite On will last longer as the last one did.
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Postby Mr. Birger on Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:15 am

That's good, I'm glad that you got your new drive so that you could give me some info about what "error-score" you get on the CD-RW discs.

Hmm, don't forget to tell me what kind of CD-RW discs you use when you check the C1 info.

RJW, don't forget to tell me if it's a new and unused CD-RW disc or an used disc you use when you check your C1.
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Postby Mr. Birger on Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:29 am

RJW, hello to you.

I thought that I was going to ask you if you have put your Lite-On 52327s into your computer yet?

I mean, you were going to give me your C1 error output as soon as you had put it in to your computer but you maybe have forgotten about it?

Anyway, here's a reminder of that I want you to tell me about how much C1 you get on a CD-RW disc on average.

And RJW, don't forget about giving me this info to.

Brand and speed label of your CD-RW.
If your CD-RW is new and unused or used.
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Postby RJW on Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:31 pm

I hadn't forgot it but some more important tasks cam through it.

Well my C1 results can be divided in to 2 groups.
Burned on Plextor 24/10/40A
No matter if the disc is used much or if it's 2-4x or it's 4x-10x Verbatim MCC media I get scores between 0.4-5 for this drive. And never C2/CU.
All media is Verbatim (made by MCC ) all other media didn't live up to there standards.

unused is most times between 0.35-1
hardly used (2-10 times ) rewrites and allmost never full. Media was only quick errased and it's ues is quite cascaded - between:2-5(These media most times contains a large spike at the begining and then goes into a very low error range)
Heavy used (10-257 times) c1 averages between:1-3 never full erased only quick erases. The large spike is gone !

Now when I check the media burned on Lite On 48246S and 52327S I will get media results for the same type of media ranging from 4-35 C1 average and sometimes even C2 errors.
average of 4-10 for Unburned
No real difference spotted between slighlty used(cascaded) and intensive use.

Now it would be nice if it now also can perform better after one of the the Lite On's has used it. Also I would like to test the Pioneer. As soon as I got time I will do. Also I will need some new blank media to check better on the performance.

Like I said befor the old Plextor ones again outperfoms the modern drives.

If people want to see some K-probe scans of the 57326S, then let me know and I will try to find some hosting space and get these online.
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:03 pm

good reason not to get rid of m 24x Plextor.

do you by chance happen to have a Plextor 40x too?
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Postby RJW on Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:12 pm

I don't have a 40x plextor myself. (Because the build quality of the 24x was to good give me a real reason for upgradeing.) However if I need it I can borrow one quite easily so far. Some test results we did earlier with cd-r's showed that the Plextor 16/10/40TA was probally plextors best model when it came to media compatability and writing quality. After that things went down hill untill the premium which was better as the 48x one.
As soon as I get new CD-RW's and I have some time some serious testing will be done.
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