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S/W for Cendyne Not Applicable to Other Drives

Nero Burning ROM, Nero Express, NeroVision Express, Recode, InCD, etc..

Postby CowboySlim on Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:05 am

KCK,

1. Didn't have Nero InfoTool
2. D/L'd it, thanks, nice to have.
3. Autorun was on.
4. "Format disc to CD-MRW" was checked
5. Had a fresh CD-RW.
6. Formatted with InCD to "The disc was mounted in InCD UDF fole format".
7. Now what I had been doing previously was double-clicking successively form MyComputer icon until the folder in which the PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe was located with pcbesetup.exe and pc523.exe (both APC files, also) and then pulling the folder across the screen to the InCD (K:) icon.
8. This time I opened that folder and pulled PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe, no problem.
9. Well, now it gets messy: I then pulled the folder again as if to copy over the 1st file and copy the other two and it blew - it's the other two executables that won't D&D! I had been masking it with the folder pull and what the little transfer deal was showing me that it was in the process of copying PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe when it froze.

I repeated the D&Ds many times with one thing constant: I always reformatted to UDF before a pull.
1. Using a non-fresh disc now, I sometimes did the Nero erase before the reformat, but that seemed not to affect anything.
2. The PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe always copied.
3. The other two always failed.
4. Admittedly, my technique was lacking as I didn't write down every observation. However, there were two failure modes:
(a.) Screen went black and rebooted - with an opportunity to send a report in to MS, I declined.
(b.) Screen froze and clicking on the upper right corner of "MyComputer" brought "MyComputer not responding", so I hit the reset button.
5. I right clicked on MyComputer an number of times, I guess that's what you call Explorer, then pulled across panes: same results - no affect.
8. Failure modes (here I'm hazy - could repeat):
(a.) Black screen/auto reboot when the disc was empty and either one of the other two was the first pull.
(b.) Blue/frozen/reset after first pulling PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe then pulling either one of the other two.
9. State of disc:
(a.) Never saw a partially filled in CDFS as previously - always empty
(b.) Sometimes it was UDF, but empty
(c.) If not UDF, a right click on the (K:) icon and then the Explore said like illegal funtion - disc unrecognizable, InCD said "Empty Disc" and not UDF.
10. Didn't correlate CD state results of 9. Apologies - can repeat and will write it all down next time bye.

Summary: Same 2 files always failed, other file always copied.

Can you think of a new plan?

Slim
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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:12 am

Better yet, KCK,

Suggest a test, 1 only, I'll repeat 3x and write it down, then post. Then we'll go from there. I was trying parametric stuff (to get results quickly) and it really wasn't leveraging my efforts well. I really know better than that.


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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:37 am

KCK,

Here's a plan: pc523.exe is 10,603Kb.

Send me a note: CowboySlim@att.net

I'll return the file.

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Postby KCK on Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:17 am

CowboySlim:

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses.

I wonder why you didn't have Nero InfoTool, since on Feb. 21 you wrote that you had installed Nero 5.5.10.7b, so Nero InfoTool should have been available via Start| Programs| Ahead Nero| Nero Toolkit.

Although the Autorun status shouldn't matter, for testing you could turn Autorun off as described in S10 of my InCD guide

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... adid=64787

(the procedure is the same for W2K and XP).

I gather that you used CD-MRW (Mt. Rainier) in both the latest and all previous experiments. Again, it shouldn't matter, but you could try to test the standard non-MRW format, i.e., with the option "Format disc to CD-MRW" unchecked in InCD Page Settings.

In fact I am not sure whether your usage of "formatted to UDF" meant "formatted to CD-MRW", so it might be better to speak about "non-MRW format" and "MRW format".

I have difficulties in understanding your copying procedures. Apparently your burner's drive is called K: (and parenthesized K: gives a smiley as in your post!), so it's better to speak about drive K: or the InCD drive rather than the InCD icon (which normally refers to the systray InCD icon).

You seem to have a folder on one of your drives which contains the three files: PowerChutePersonalEdition.exe, pc523.exe and pcbesetup.exe. What is the name of this folder? The reason for asking is that InCD might have difficulties with long folder names; thus for testing, you could create a folder on your drive C:, say C:\test, copy the three files to this folder (one by one, i.e., don't copy the source folder itself), and then try copying this folder to drive K:.

To check if the freezes occur only when copying pc523.exe and/or pcbesetup.exe, you should try to copy these two files individually (one by one) to K:\ (i.e., the root of drive K: ). Please tell us what happens in detail, because even if you tried this already, your previous description is not clear.

If these individual file copies fail, tell us whether you have FAT or NTFS on the source drive. Namely, NTFS supports additional data streams associated with each file, and if a file with additional data streams is copied to a FAT volume (e.g., your InCD disc), all named data streams and other attributes not supported by FAT are lost, but you should receive an error message, such as "Confirm Stream Loss" described in S17 of my InCD guide. Of course, you should also check whether you have adequate permissions for each file (righ-click each file, choose Properties, Security and your login name).

Yet another possibility is that your difficulties are due to other files hidden in the source directory. To check, make sure that Explorer is set up to show hidden files, or run "dir /ah" in a Command Prompt window in the source directory.

I still don't know if your discs were mounted by InCD after reboots (see S8 in my guide), and how you distinguished between CDFS and UDF. To avoid ambiguities, you should right-click the InCD icon, choose Properties, and report all the relevant entries.

In general, instead of summarizing the results of your experiments, please describe each experiment in detail.
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Postby KCK on Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:15 pm

CowboySlim:

Here are my results for Lite-On LTR48125W VS08, XP Pro SP1 NTFS, on a CD-RW disc (Datex 80min/700MB 10x) formatted to CD-MRW. Initially InCD Page Information reported Label InCDkck009, Type CD-MRW Media, File System FS_UDF, Used space 49,152 bytes, Free space 565,657,600 bytes, Capacity 565,706,752 bytes.

I used Google to download your two files to C:\test; dir gives

Directory of C:\test
02/24/2003 03:46 PM 10,856,486 pc523.exe
02/24/2003 04:31 PM 39,506,944 pcbesetup.exe
2 File(s) 50,363,430 bytes

Using My Computer, I dragged C:\test to drive F (my burner), getting

Directory of F:\test
02/24/2003 03:46 PM 10,856,486 pc523.exe
02/24/2003 04:31 PM 39,506,944 pcbesetup.exe
2 File(s) 50,363,430 bytes
2 Dir(s) 515,282,944 bytes free

and fc/b showed that the contents of C:\test and F:\test were identical. At this stage, InCD Page Information reported Used space 50,423,808 bytes, Free space 515,282,944 bytes free, Capacity 565,706,752 bytes.

Finally, I deleted F:\test, and then InCD Page Information reported the initial Used space 49,152 bytes, Free space 565,657,600 bytes, Capacity 565,706,752 bytes.

To sum up, in my case everything worked as expected.

Of course, our files could differ (you could google for similar files), but this shouldn't matter. I gather they are simple installation files, so they shouldn't have additional data streams; anyway, I didn't get "Confirm Data Loss" errors. So, unless your source directory contains some hidden files (see my previous message), something else is wrong.

One feature of these files is that they are both fairly large. Maybe your system can't handle big files? To verify this hypothesis, you could try copying other big files (not just those two).
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Postby CowboySlim on Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:26 am

Looks like we'll get the Nobel Prize for this. Repeated your test. Printed your previous for future. To save typing, edited your last.

Here are my results for Memorex 52MAXX 2452AJ 6WS3, XP Home SP1 NTFS (SP1 NTFS), on a CD-RW disc (Memorex 80min/700MB 12x) formatted to CD-MRW. Initially InCD Page Information reported Label InCD, Type CD-MRW Media, File System FS_UDF, Used space 49,104 bytes, Free space 565,659,648 bytes, Capacity 565,706,752 (same) bytes.

I made a full (not quick) of the media
I made a folder, test for those two files to C:\test; dir gives

Directory of C:\test
03/12/2002 09:29 PM 10,856,486 (same size) pc523.exe
09/13/2002 08:41 PM 39,506,432 pcbesetup.exe
2 File(s) 50,362,918 bytes (Size on folder properties)
2 File(s) 50,368,512 bytes (Size on disc on folder properties)

I have my machine set to open with double click (DC) and select with single click (SC),
So, with the My Computer panel open and showing my drives and two folders (Shared Documents & Owner's Documents), I DC to open the C:, I SC on the C:test folder (dir) to select, I dragged C:\test to drive K (my burner), getting the input box titled "Confirm Stream Loss", with the text “The file ‘pc523’ has extra information attachedto it that might be lost if you continue copying. The contents of the file will not be affected. Information that might be lost includes: "Document Summary Info”, and then some command buttons: Yes, Yes to All, No, Cancel, so I SCd on the Yes to all, got the black screen and a reboot.

After reboot, InCD Page info was same as above

Tried another large file transfer from an NTFS logical partition (S:):
S:/Setup & Installs Folder/DSLExtreme 12,017,639 bytes
(This is an install file I used to setup my daughter's dialup (ISP))
It went as expected - clean copy.

Tried another file from Dantz (Retrospect)
S:/Setup & Installs Folder/Dantz Folder/express_56_upgrade 14,628,352
SC to select and drag to K:,
got the Confirm Data Stream Loss box, SCd "Yes", got the black screen - reboot.

InCD Page Info was the same as above, opened K: and saw the folder "test", which was empty (evidently it got established on my first drag) and the file DSLExtreme at the correct size.

Now, I'm surmising that the failures are with that "Confirm Stream Loss" and that I may lose the "Document Summary Info", so I checked the four subject files with a right click - properties, and looked at the Summary tab. It's that author, etc. stuff. All four were empty of data/entries.

Well, 9:20PM PDT
Still work daily (only 64)
I’ll check back in the AM, try more Tue eve. Have another HDD (Secondary Master) with a bootable primary partition, but it has more Windows patches/updates. Could boot that up and try more large files. Oh! Then my Memorex CD-RW is Secondary Slave and I’ve been dragging to my Primary Master HDD (no Primary Slave). I don’t know why that would have anything to do with it but I’ll believe anything now!

Later,
Slim
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Postby KCK on Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:14 am

CowboySlim:

OK, we have made some progress.

But first, let me note that your Memorex 80min/700MB 12x discs have rather poor reputation, so you should get better media (Verbatim). BTW, in your case Used space + Free space > Capacity! Something is wrong; could you check the space figures again?

As I suspected earlier, apparently you are suffering from the "Confirm Stream Loss" problem described in S17 of my InCD guide. For basic info, take a look at Microsoft Windows XP Professional Resource Kit Documentation, Ch 13 File Systems, NTFS File System, Features Available on NTFS Volumes, Multiple Data Streams, Fig. 13.15, also available at

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treevi ... frame=true

and the writeup of Nikolai Sklobovsky

http://www.sklobovsky.com/community/hidden2000/

Let's concentrate on pc523.exe first. Although our versions are probably identical, you seem to have additional data streams. Normally such streams are identified by strings listed in Document Summary Info (e.g., I saw ":encryptable:$DATA" for Thumbs.db in another experiment), so you should check this point when you try again. Apparently Properties| Summary needn't show anything in such cases (everything is empty for Thumbs.db).

Note that finding such ":stream_name:$DATA" strings could be useful in haunting down applications that create additional data streams for book-keeping purposes. Here the possible culprits include virus scanners and archivers, so for any suspect program you should check it's options related to NTFS volumes. Further, you could use Sklobovsky's Stream Scanner to identify additional data streams. Yet another way, avoiding InCD crashes, is to copy files to FAT volumes (e.g., a diskette).

I couldn't find any program for removing additional data streams.

For now, to copy files with data streams, you have two options. First, you may copy them to a FAT volume (thus removing data streams), and then to InCD discs. The second option is to copy files via Total Commander (formerly known as Windows Commander) from www.ghisler.com (shareware, but not time-limited). Total Commander has always worked for me.

Thus it's hard to say whether your difficulties should be blamed on MS or Ahead (since Total Commander works with InCD).


-------------------------------
EDIT: Here are links for discovering and removing alternate data streams:

http://patriot.net/~carvdawg/docs/dark_side.html

http://www.heysoft.de/nt/ntfs-ads.htm

http://www.cknow.com/vtutor/vtntfsads.htm

http://www.diamondcs.com.au/streams/streams.htm

http://is-it-true.org/nt/atips/atips226.shtml

http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/m-034.shtml

http://www.sans.org/rr/threats/win_NTFS.php
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Postby CowboySlim on Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:00 pm

Quick note, then more when I get home.

Yes, I noticed that Used/free space discrepancy and therefore made a double check and tried to indicate by noting (same size). But I'll take another look.

Tried some other media, which I didn't mention, Fuji 1 - 4x, and another Memorex 24x. See it on all three.

Later,

Slim
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Postby CowboySlim on Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:31 am

KCK,

I guess I'm not sure about the used, free = capacity that didn't add up. Can't reproduce those numbers now, but I did notice it then and thought it strange. Tonight: 47,104; 565,659,648; 565,706,752; adding up after formatting.

I apologize for not mentioning the "Confirm Stream Loss" input box first time bye. That sure was critical to this whole scenario, in retrospect.

I printed out your InCD troubleshooting guide - dynamite reference. My phenonemon listed therein as S17. (Really should have mentioned that!)

Well, I followed through on the FAT fix. I copied from my NTFS C:\test\pc523.exe to my USB pen drive, which I verified was in FAT format, and got "Confirm Stream Loss". Copied back to the source and then to the rewriteable without "Confirm Stream Loss". So your FAT suggestion was just PERFECT! It cleaned off whatever was there.

I really hate loose ends lying around and am glad to have a resolution; although, the ultimate resolution is finding the source of that stuff. Nevertheless, had you not given me the FAT fix, the impact would probably be marginal in an operational sense. While there is a certain convenience in the drag & drop copy ability provided by InCD, I find myself using CD-RW as a media less frequently. With the CD-R media at 10 cents per (Note: Budda's hot tips), just burn out a recordable. With my 64MB USB pen drive, I'm not using CD-RW when I want to carry something bigger than 1.44Mb anymore, either. As you said when it was first suspect to be a large file size phenonemon, those were some large files. However, I easily scrubbed them on my pen drive.

Anyway, KCK, thanks again, and
I'll be baaaaaaaaack, because if it's not one thing it's another, but it's always something.

Slim
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Postby KCK on Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:58 pm

CowboySlim:

Some additional (final?) notes follow.

It is a bit strange that we get different used and free spaces, although our capacities are the same. Try to check these figures when you get better media.

I hope you have printed the XP version of the InCD guide

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 4876#54876

and not the W2K one (which was also updated based on your problem).

To find the programs which create ADS's on your box, I would check your antivirus and backup software first (I'm not sure about Windows Indexing Service, since I've always switched it off).

I have just tested two utilities for listing alternate data streams and their sizes: Streams v1.3 from Sysinternals

http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/source/misc.shtml

and LADS v3.10 from Frank Heyne Software

http://www.heysoft.de/Frames/f_sw_la_en.htm

Their capabilities are similar, except that LADS's switch /XADSname allows to exclude ADS's with name ADSname (useful if your antivirus software creates ADSname streams).

I have run them on a couple of directories only. Thumbs.db occurs even in C:\Windows, with ADS "encryptable" of size 0. I was a bit suprized that my personalized .pif files have two ADS's (SummaryInformation and 4c8cc155-...); otherwise nothing interesting was found. In your case, the names of ADS's could exhibit the culprits.

In practice inessential files, such as Thumbs.db, don't matter much, since they can be skipped by responding No to the "Confirm Stream Loss" querry. For other files, copying to FAT volumes is not always feasible, and manual removal of ADS's is quite inconvenient (although one could develop scripts with the cat command). Thus I still think that it is easiest to use "smart" copiers, such as Total Commander.

To sum up, as many other people, I think that MS's introduction of ADS's into NTFS was a bad idea (or rather its implementation stinks), but Ahead should eventually provide a fix for InCD to handle ADS's.
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