Home News Reviews Forums Shop


Good and bad results with a fresh LTR52246S.

Burn baby burn!

Good and bad results with a fresh LTR52246S.

Postby Harrier on Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:09 am

Did a check with Kprobe on some new fresh cdr's:

First was the Bundled cd (Which, by the way. smells a bit like dung):
It has some episodes of Southpark (For the friends):
Image

Then there was this next astonishing result:
I burned a "Silver Line" brand cd which lie down here for about a year or more. It was burned at 16X (Certified speed. Smart-X said 32X, though). Made by Ritek, this cd is considered, in the best case scenario, "Almost Ok" by users here. Amazingly enough, these are the results:
Image

And now for the botchy write:
I have found a 5 TDK cdrs which i remember lying around here for some two years or even more. Certified to 8X, Smart-X said 16X. Being such a conservative i went with 8X. i took about 8:11 min' for completion.
Threw it to Kprobe:
Image

Damn.. That's extremely strange. Harsh at the begining but creamy at the end. What would you suggest?
Should i try burning it at 16X
Last edited by Harrier on Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Postby Harrier on Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:13 am

One other thing (LTR52246S users): Is your tray too shaky?
When ejected and shoved (Left, right, up & down), it moves a little.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:05 am

Those are some very nice results, Harrier (TDK excepted). Congratulations on your new 52246S and your success in getting KProbe running! :D Karr has done a great job, hasn't he?

About the TDK's:
Harrier wrote:What would you suggest?

Throw away the remaining 4 unburned discs, or give them to someone you don't like very much. Seriously, they may be too old or suffered in storage (too hot and humid, perhaps?). You may get better results at 16x, but since you only have four left, why bother risking it? If you do use them, don't use them for any critical data.

Harrier wrote:One other thing (LTR52246S users): Is your tray too shaky?
When ejected and shoved (Left, right, up & down), it moves a little.

That is normal. In fact, all my drives (LiteOn and Yamaha) have somewhat floppy trays when fully extended.

cfitz
cfitz
CD-RW Curmudgeon
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:44 am

Postby jase on Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:12 am

Then there was this next astonishing result:
I burned a "Silver Line" brand cd which lie down here for about a year or more. It was burned at 16X (Certified speed. Smart-X said 32X, though). Made by Ritek, this cd is considered, in the best case scenario, "Almost Ok" by users here.


This mirrors the experiences I've had with newer Ritek media. As far as I'm concerned these discs are as good as many of the large Japanese brands, and I don't think they get the recognition they deserve.

As for the TDK, the LiteOn just doesn't like type-0 media. As there are no examples of this type being made anymore, I'm guessing LiteOn just chose to optimise the drive for the newer media. Type 0 needs a LOT more power than modern media, so perhaps that's why.

One other thing (LTR52246S users): Is your tray too shaky?
When ejected and shoved (Left, right, up & down), it moves a little.


You ought to use the Pioneer A04. God I hate that tray....
jase
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:00 pm

Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:29 am

jase wrote:This mirrors the experiences I've had with newer Ritek media. As far as I'm concerned these discs are as good as many of the large Japanese brands, and I don't think they get the recognition they deserve.

I've had good experiences with Ritek lately as well.

cfitz
cfitz
CD-RW Curmudgeon
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:44 am

Postby BillyG on Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:33 am

Harrier wrote:One other thing (LTR52246S users): Is your tray too shaky?
When ejected and shoved (Left, right, up & down), it moves a little.


I bought a LTR-52246S and the tray moved very slowly while ejecting, and the motor up and died or the drive mech jammed up after 3 weeks. I tried the old paperclip trick but the drive tray wouldnt budge. Luckily I was able to take it back to Best Buy for a refund. Im hoping another Buslink or Cendyne goes on sale with a good rebate deal again.

I have had two LTR-48125W drives (ones a Memorex 48Maxx) since last fall and both have worked great - no problems and I proably have burned over 140 (my guess) CD-Rs with them.
User avatar
BillyG
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:03 am
Location: Somewhere in Texas

Postby Harrier on Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:01 am

A small and significant update:
Image

An Audio cdr burned at 12X.
Quality went up when speed increased.
Maybe at 16X it would be even better..?
Last edited by Harrier on Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:19 am

Harrier wrote:Quality went up when speed increased.
Maybe at 16X it would be even better..?

Possibly, although the results at 12x are already very good.

I've seen a similar effect with my LiteOn when burning some 24x Mitsui media. At 24x the burn quality isn't very good, but at 40x it is much improved. It seems that newer high speed burners often do better burning at higher speeds than lower speeds. The drives may be optmized for high-speed burning at the expense of low-speed burning quality.

cfitz
cfitz
CD-RW Curmudgeon
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:44 am

Postby CDRecorder on Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:46 am

Harrier wrote:One other thing (LTR52246S users): Is your tray too shaky?
When ejected and shoved (Left, right, up & down), it moves a little.


This is true on all of my drives (Lite-On and others) except for a 1993 Mitsumi 2x CD-ROM drive. I wouldn't worry about it unless something really seems broken.
CDRecorder
CD-RW Recorder
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 pm

Postby burninfool on Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:32 pm

I have had great results using Ritek 90/99min CD-R with my LTR-52246S,they are rated at 24x but will burn at 48x.
I agree the tray is flimsy but for $30USD I can't complain.What I don't like is the headphone jack and volume control they are useless without a play/next button.
User avatar
burninfool
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:50 am
Location: USA

Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:37 pm

Does anyone think that the Z-CLV strategy used on <20x would contribute to higher error rates? I'm presuming that the laser gets calibrated differently. On That crappy TDK scan, the curve vaguely resembles an RPM curve, does it not?
rdgrimes
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:27 pm
Location: New Mexico, USA

Postby CDRecorder on Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:54 pm

I don't know if the write strategy is the problem, but I have seen on my burners that burning at lower speeds will result in a lower quality burn, even with the same media.

BTW, did you really mean Z-CLV? I thought that Lite-On used P-CAV for higher speeds and CLV for lower speeds. I could be wrong, though.
CDRecorder
CD-RW Recorder
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 pm

Postby Harrier on Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:59 pm

Hot from the furnace:
Burned an Audio cd (same TDK) at 12X:
Image

All of these TDK's seem to have one thing in common (In particular):
The big spike at the beginig.
What do you think the hurdle is?
Last edited by Harrier on Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:23 pm

The reason the CLV (not ZCLV :oops: )thing popped into my head is that the early spike resembles the spike I see on some RW discs. I was just curious to know if the laser calibration changes as the RPM drops, or if it remains constant, (because the linear velocity is constant). I never understood that early spike on RW's either.
rdgrimes
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:27 pm
Location: New Mexico, USA

Postby CDRecorder on Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:37 pm

Interesting thought, rdgrimes. I had never really thought about whether the laser changes its power or not. I always assumed it did change for CLV or Z-CLV burning.

Also, I am curious as to what you meant by the spike of errors you see on some of the CD-RW discs. I have never observed this, but I haven't used too many brands of RWs, either, and I haven't done many C1/C2 scans on the ones I have used. Is this occurring on UDF packet written discs, or on standard burns? I am not doubting what you said; I am just interested in finding out more.
CDRecorder
CD-RW Recorder
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 pm

Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:53 pm

Here's the ones I've tested:
http://forum.cdfreaks.com/showthread.ph ... adid=60316

I've not bothered testing much in the way of UDF-written media, partly because every UDF utility I've ever tried crashes Windows2000 and I won't allow them to pollute my system. :x
rdgrimes
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:27 pm
Location: New Mexico, USA

Postby CDRecorder on Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:38 pm

Thanks for the link (and all of the work that went into your posts), rdgrimes! Now that you mention it, I think that I've seen this with some CD-R discs, too.
CDRecorder
CD-RW Recorder
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 pm

Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:33 pm

The laser parameters don't change for CLV, and change only once per zone for Z-CLV, because the linear velocity is constant. Look at it this way: the laser has no idea how fast the disc is rotating, it only "knows" how fast the media is passing directly above it. Thus, angular velocity has no direct effect on burning, while linear velocity does.

One of the original raps against P-CAV and CAV in comparison to Z-CLV was the need to adjust burning parameters on the fly. There was a lot of concern that the need to constantly vary laser parameters to account for the changing linear velocity when burning in P-CAV/CAV modes would result in poor quality burns. In the end, the concern turned out to be unfounded.

cfitz
cfitz
CD-RW Curmudgeon
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:44 am

Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:46 pm

In the end, the concern turned out to be unfounded.

In fact, it would seem that the opposite is true, that CAV is producing the highest quality burns ever. So, cfitz, what's your take on the early spikes of errors? Is there some inherant mis-alligment of the laser due to the smaller diameter of the spiral? Why does better media not do this?
rdgrimes
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:27 pm
Location: New Mexico, USA

Postby dodecahedron on Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:56 pm

rdgrimes wrote:
In the end, the concern turned out to be unfounded.

In fact, it would seem that the opposite is true, that CAV is producing the highest quality burns ever.

???
why do you say that?
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie
-- JRRT
M.C. Escher - Reptilien
User avatar
dodecahedron
DVD Polygon
 
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2002 12:04 am
Location: Israel

Postby CDRecorder on Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:45 pm

rdgrimes wrote:
In the end, the concern turned out to be unfounded.

In fact, it would seem that the opposite is true, that CAV is producing the highest quality burns ever.


Interestingly, I have noticed frequently that higher speeds usually produce better burns than low speed ones using the same media. This is even true on CLV-only drives like my Lite-On LTR-12101B and my Philips PCRW1208. I don't remember if my LTR-32123S (P-CAV) does this; I usually only burn at 32x on it.
CDRecorder
CD-RW Recorder
 
Posts: 2335
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 pm

Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:33 pm

rdgrimes wrote:So, cfitz, what's your take on the early spikes of errors?

I'm not really sure what is going on, rdgrimes. It is easy to come up with reasons why errors may increase at the outer edge of the disc, but I don't have any theories for why they would peak near the hub. The only thing I can think of right now is a failing stamper that just happened to have some defects in that area. But that wouldn't explain why you see it on various CD-RW discs as well.

If I come up with anything, I will post it here.

cfitz
cfitz
CD-RW Curmudgeon
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:44 am

Postby Harrier on Fri May 02, 2003 9:37 am

Updating:
Burned at 24X with the bundled Cd-rw.
Scaned at 40X i guess.
By the way, i fully formatted before the burn.
Same pattern: Spike at the begining.

Image
Last edited by Harrier on Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Postby jase on Fri May 02, 2003 10:05 am

rdgrimes wrote:
In the end, the concern turned out to be unfounded.

In fact, it would seem that the opposite is true, that CAV is producing the highest quality burns ever.


Not really. I'd say that's coincidence.

A *good* phthalocyanine CDR will perform just as well if not better in terms of C1 error rates at 16xCLV as 48xCAV. I would still trust the 16x more though as discs recorded at that speed tend to be more *compatible* than 48x discs (whether the 48x is ZCLV or CAV).

I think the fact that CAV burns seem the best ever has more to do with the fact that writers themselves have improved immeasurably over the last couple of years.

The "spike" is most likely caused by the running OPC taking a while to calibrate this type of media. As I have said, the LiteOn drives do not like type 0 cyanine media; it takes a lot of power to burn it (which was suited to the older drives but not so much to newer ones with more accurate, but less powerful laser assemblies) and the optimum range is a lot wider so the drive, not being very well optimised for this sort of media, takes a while to lock on to the best strategy. It would also explain why this process takes a bit longer with 8x than faster speeds -- the running OPC runs deliberately very slowly to avoid making coasters as it makes its adjustments.

I can guarantee that if you could coax the LiteOn into burning the disc at 32x CAV you'd get a very similar result. I'd also hazard a guess that 16x will be better than 12x.
jase
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:00 pm

Postby Harrier on Fri May 02, 2003 1:48 pm

That is a fine interpretation.

Well, bought one Memrex rated at 24X (i'm conducting a survey, as you may have noticed by now).
Looks so:
Image

CDspeed says the manufacturer is Ritek though instantinfo.de insists on Prodisc (The ATIP is different though from my cdr so i'm 99% sure it is a Ritek).
It also declared the dye type was 7 and the short strategy (Phthalocyanine).

It was stressed with some Audio files and though rated at 24X i burned it at 16X.

Here are the results:
Image

I'm pleased.
Last edited by Harrier on Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harrier
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 am

Next

Return to CD-R/CD-RW Drives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

All Content is Copyright (c) 2001-2017 CDRLabs Inc.