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How Bush handles New Orleans

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Postby Agent Orange on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:13 am

Look, its easy to monday quaterback the president . The sad thing is that people are Katrina as a political tool. Most of these people just criticize but don't come up with any ideas on how to solve the issues. I have a love hate relationship with the president. Overall I like the man. Just for info emergency response starts at the local level, starting with the mayor of the city ,police chief,and fire chief . Its is like a pyramid and it works itself all the way up. When the local goverment doesn't know what the hell is going on its very hard for the federal goverment to help , since the first question is usually "what's the situation and what do you need". At least thats what I have experienced myself working in a disaster zone before.
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Postby Boba_Fett on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:09 pm

code65536 wrote:
And then to hear about how the top FEMA guys got their jobs because they're friends of friends of Bush is just frustrating because it's just one more politician who claims to not be a politician but who really is.


Got any proof on that that DIDN'T come from moveon.org?

code65536 wrote:
So even if it's for the wrong reasons, I really hope that Katrina seriously wounds Bush...


How nice of you!

code65536 wrote:
Who knows, maybe McCain or Powell or Clark would be just as corrupted if he gets power. *shrug*


Where the hell are you getting your news information, from the blog of Al Franken? How does the US work nowadays when so many misguided people are under the illusion that our government is one big corrupted tank? Bleh...
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Postby code65536 on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:35 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:Got any proof on that that DIDN'T come from moveon.org?

cnn.com; haven't been to moveon.org ... so where do you get your news? foxnews.com?

illusion that our government is one big corrupted tank?

Illusion? I think not. Granted, it's a heck of a lot better than most countries in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of corruption on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Instead of just waving a "that's ridiculous" flag, why not actually post something with some semblance of substance? Actual evidence of non-corruption would be a start.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:45 pm

.....Not quite how I was hoping this thread would turn out :-?
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Postby LoneWolf on Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:02 pm

Problem 1: Our nation has come to assume that the President is responsible for EVERYTHING. That's right. EVERYTHING. From the big stuff to the piddly things.

Ever manage a large organization? Then you'll know that it's impossible to manage everything yourself, and that if you try, you'll fail miserably and be seen as a micro-managing SOB. So, what you have to do is hire managers you trust at levels below you, and trust them to do their jobs. You may have to even trust managers to hire managers below them if you're big enough. You can't do it alone. Ironically, you have to go in knowing that if someone down the chain of command fubars things, you'll take the blame for it. This is what the President's job is like, and I mean every president. Not just Bush, or Clinton, or Reagan, Carter, etc. but all of them.

Maybe sometimes we should assume the responsibility starts with us and our peers and move from there, rather than looking for someone else to be all the time.

Problem 2: State and local government didn't do its job. There were a lot of breakdowns along the way that can be brought to the doorstep of state and local governments here. There's more than enough blame to go around. The city is whining that others didn't do their job when they didn't either.

Problem 3: A ton of people disregarded the evacuation warnings alltogether. I understand that many poor didn't have a choice, and I feel bad about that, and I also know traffic got bottlenecked (evac warnings should have gone out even sooner). But there are plenty of people who decided not to leave. The death toll could be lower if they had. And to top it off, some people decided that disaster = a good reason for lawlessness. I'll never understand why disasters make it okay to loot, pillage, rape, or shoot sniper rifles in the mind of some idiots out there.

Problem 4: Too many cooks in the kitchen. Agencies failed to coordinate with each other, or even within themselves. Government authorities refused to let in aid organizations. There wasn't a clear balanced structure, and it hurt everyone.

I'm not the president's biggest fan (though I'm not his biggest detractor either). But everyone blaming Bush on this one is just looking for another thing to pin on him. The truth is, there is plenty of blame to go around, and hindsight is also always 20/20. The hard-core Democrats are using this as something to bash the current administration about, which is exactly what Republicans would do if Dems were in power. Let's put aside the partsan bickering that makes me so mad I want to spit nails, and do something productive, rather than arguing for its own sake. Let's analyze and fix the problems rather than waste time finding people to blame.
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Postby LoneWolf on Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:06 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:.....Not quite how I was hoping this thread would turn out :-?


Yeah, well anyone can see that picture was Photoshopped. I mean, come on, with the water quality down there at the moment, fish have FAR more than just two eyes. ;)
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Postby Boba_Fett on Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:07 pm

code65536 wrote:
Boba_Fett wrote:Got any proof on that that DIDN'T come from moveon.org?

cnn.com; haven't been to moveon.org ... so where do you get your news? foxnews.com?

illusion that our government is one big corrupted tank?

Illusion? I think not. Granted, it's a heck of a lot better than most countries in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of corruption on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Instead of just waving a "that's ridiculous" flag, why not actually post something with some semblance of substance? Actual evidence of non-corruption would be a start.


I never said that our government or country was perfect. Why we may have the best setup on the planet, it is impossible to squander every ounce of corruption, greed, dishonesty, etc. The only reason I'm bringing up issue in this thread (on a CDR/DVDR forum no-less) is that I keep seeing more and more people downing Bush and our gov because it seems like a cool thing to do. If one Bush hater says one thing, all the other Bush haters take it in as fact. If one Bush supporter says another thing, it is rediculous right-wing propaganda. I know you probably don't think Bush will start WWIII and thus bring down the apocalypse on us, but quite a few morons do. I figure I can do a little to understand this odd phenomenon by not letting threads like these get onesided.

P.S. could you link me to that "FEMA heads put in by Bush" story? I watch CNN all the time and I've never heard that...

To Dolp: Sorry I ruined your thread :-?
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:45 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:To Dolp: Sorry I ruined your thread :-?

no worry.

the evolution of this thread was as predictable as Hurricane Katrina! :wink:
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Postby code65536 on Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:26 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:I never said that our government or country was perfect. Why we may have the best setup on the planet, it is impossible to squander every ounce of corruption, greed, dishonesty, etc. The only reason I'm bringing up issue in this thread (on a CDR/DVDR forum no-less) is that I keep seeing more and more people downing Bush and our gov because it seems like a cool thing to do. If one Bush hater says one thing, all the other Bush haters take it in as fact. If one Bush supporter says another thing, it is rediculous right-wing propaganda. I know you probably don't think Bush will start WWIII and thus bring down the apocalypse on us, but quite a few morons do.

I don't dislike Bush because it's the cool thing to do. I dislike Bush because I've been following the actions of the presidency for the past five years and it has disillusioned me. Just because I blame him for FEMA and certain other things that I've raised, it doesn't mean that I blame him for everything (i.e., the economy, IMHO, is, for the most part, not his fault).

If one Bush hater says one thing, all the other Bush haters take it in as fact. If one Bush supporter says another thing, it is rediculous right-wing propaganda.

It depends on where you are. If you are in the California Bay Area or in Boston, that'll probably be true. If you're in North Carolina (where I am), the opposite is true--anything said by a Bush supporter is taken as fact without question and anything that dares to even hint at saying that Bush is wrong is quickly dismissed as left-wing propaganda aimed at destroying the country, etc. In the end, both sides are guilty of the same thing, and it just depends on who has the stronger voice in a particular region that the difference is drawn between victim and victimizer.

I figure I can do a little to understand this odd phenomenon by not letting threads like these get onesided.

Well, if you put it like that, then it's noble indeed; but I must say, it didn't come across like that at all when I read it. I just get a little touchy when anyone accuses me of being a left-wing wacko because I'm not. Ironically, I've been recently dogged as a right-wing wacko on CD Freaks because I tried to correct some factual errors put out by a Bush hater who obviously didn't bother to look at any of the facts. I think there's gotta be a distinction between bashing Bush because it's chic and because one truly feels that it is the right thing to do, and to lump the latter into the former is injurious (and to be honest, making an attack like that makes YOU seem like someone who's a zombie supporter of Bush ;)).

P.S. could you link me to that "FEMA heads put in by Bush" story? I watch CNN all the time and I've never heard that...

I actually don't watch CNN because I don't have cable; it's all online for me. But in any case, upon closer inspection, it's actually a Reuters article posted on CNN's site, which may be why it was not aired. Other sources such as the (admittedly left-leaning) New York Times also say the same thing (in a bit more detail) about the assignment of crony jobs.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/ ... rown.reut/

PS: Who's Al Franken? :p
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Postby Boba_Fett on Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:24 pm

Good 'ole Frankie is a liberal satirist who is what the left thinks is their response to Rush Limbaugh. He is also probably the worst cast member Saturday Night Live has ever had...

As for the FEMA stuff, it seems a few heads might have been appointed by Bush, but it DOESN'T say which ones were appointed with no experience. From what I can see, FEMA has been around for years with no real domestic catastrophy to practice with. When Katrina blew away Orleans, everyone was sitting on their hands because for a lot of helpers it was litterally their first experience with something of this caliber. If anything, we'll be a lot more cautious and ready next time...
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Postby JamieW on Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:05 pm

I blame Canada and their sorcery.
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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:39 pm

It might help if one new the origins of FEMA and it's initial mission.

The initial mission had nothing to do with natural disasters. It was spawned during the cold war to deal with the aftermath of a nuclear attack on the US. It was about saving the butts of the politicians and keeping them alive.

It was only after the collapse of communism in the former USSR and its eastern European sattelites that its mission morphed into assisting with natural disasters. As helping ordinary folks afer natural disasters is not nearly important as saving elected bureaucrats after a nuclear attack, they started to fill it with political hacks. These are people who can't qualify for SSA, Amtrak or post office jobs, so they reward them with FEMA jobs for their work in getting politicians elected.

10-4?

Roger that?

Over and out.

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Postby jase on Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:20 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:
code65536 wrote:
So even if it's for the wrong reasons, I really hope that Katrina seriously wounds Bush...


How nice of you!


Hmmm. As much as a lot of people dislike Bush, it would be a travesty if something like this were to bring the man down.

Governments are incompetent by their very nature when it comes to unforseen events like this. You put in proper measures for dealing with natural disasters, you get criticised for flabby government and waste. So you cut back. Lo and behold something bad happens and you get caught with your trousers down. Happens time and time again.

In order to ensure this kind of thing NEVER happens, and the emergency services are always perfect and well-prepared, would double your taxes, and then some. People don't want that.

Being a political leader is a thankless task at times.

If you want to curse Bush, curse him over his handling of the economy, foreign policy, public services, whatever. Not this.
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Postby code65536 on Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:48 pm

jase wrote:If you want to curse Bush, curse him over his handling of the economy, foreign policy, public services, whatever. Not this.

As I said in my post, it is the wrong reason to bring down Bush, but Bush has been very deft and has been able so far to dodge almost all the foreign policy bullets. It is probably more likely (and more palatable) that this would serve to crystalize resistance on other fronts and thus bring him down indirectly.
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Postby CowboySlim on Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:07 am

Well, if we are talking about Republican corruption and the incompetence of Bush's lackeys, let's toss this out on the table.

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Postby Ian on Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:51 am

At least Bush is taking some responsibility for the slow response to Katrina:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/13/ ... index.html

Slim, that congressman should get charged for misuse of his power. I'm sure he just picked up his golf clubs or something.
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Postby CowboySlim on Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:09 am

Absolutely, I agree. I have no doubt though, that at one time or another, all 535 are guilty of abuse of power. However, we must remember, that thye are the ones that confirm the appointments of the Attorneys General as they are know doing with the Supreme Court nominee. So I wouldn't expect that the As G would ever bite the hand that feeds them.
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Postby Boba_Fett on Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:04 pm

CowboySlim wrote:Well, if we are talking about Republican corruption and the incompetence of Bush's lackeys, let's toss this out on the table.

Slim


Is it fair to blame the actions of one man on an entire party? Do you not think some Democrats would not be capable of doing something equally disturbing?
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Postby jmbrown12 on Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:07 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:
CowboySlim wrote:Well, if we are talking about Republican corruption and the incompetence of Bush's lackeys, let's toss this out on the table.

Slim


Is it fair to blame the actions of one man on an entire party? Do you not think some Democrats would not be capable of doing something equally disturbing?


Rep. William Jefferson is a Democrat.
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Postby Boba_Fett on Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:28 pm

Wow, I am really sorry about that. I read Slim's comment about 4 minutes before I had to rush out the door. In my skimming of the article, I TOTALLY missed the William Jefferson reference. Sorry about that :)
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Postby Ian on Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:58 pm

Another funny pic...
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