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Into which camp belong NEC and Pioneer? - or +?

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Into which camp belong NEC and Pioneer? - or +?

Postby kling on Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:33 pm

Sorry, I remember having read something about it, but could not find it searching the forum messages. I know that both companies support +/- but would like to know what is their "first allegiance"?

thanks for your help in advance
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Postby Ian on Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:37 pm

Pioneer is definitely DVD-R/RW. They pretty much developed the formats.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:56 pm

NEC is officially on the DVD+RW alliance I think... they always develope DVD+R only drives first, and then bring in the dual format version. The same goes for LiteON.
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Postby kling on Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:28 pm

Thanks for the quick replies. Which of these formats do you prefer personally?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:55 pm

kling wrote:Thanks for the quick replies. Which of these formats do you prefer personally?


I'm a DVD-R camp follower, but that is based on that fact that I can't forgive the DVD+RW alliance for stepping in and causing this stupid format war which has caused all plants to manufacturer multiple lines of products, instead of focusing on one type only, and reducing costs :evil:
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Postby Noua on Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:05 pm

I prefer -r because media is cheaper (at leat in my country) and my A06 eats them like charm...
But then again, he eats everything i throw at him... :lol:
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Postby Vanderlow on Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:39 pm

+ cause when you use bitsetting its the most compatiable format and when you read people getting a "bad batch" of blanks its about 6 to 1 - media. In my country USA their the same price (mostly). I would have thought due to the dual wars that would have helped to lower prices and intoduce faster speeds. Just like the HD-DVD BluRay wars now they're both rushing to bring out players first.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:46 pm

Vanderlow wrote:+ cause when you use bitsetting its the most compatiable format and when you read people getting a "bad batch" of blanks its about 6 to 1 - media. In my country USA their the same price (mostly). I would have thought due to the dual wars that would have helped to lower prices and intoduce faster speeds. Just like the HD-DVD BluRay wars now they're both rushing to bring out players first.


the reason 6 to 1 of the bad batches are DVD-Rs, is because DVD-R is manufactured in 10x the volume! (seriously... sales and manufacturing is STILL *that* weighted in North America!).

Where's I hear that DVD-R is made/sold in 10x the volume of DVD+R?
Futureshop, Bestbuy, NCIX.com, Optodisc America, Ritek USA, and Skyone Video
All are major manufacturers or resellers of blank media... as for myself, I sell about 1000x as many DVD-Rs as DVD+Rs, if not more.
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Postby KristopherKubicki on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:13 pm

I wasnt aware there was even a difference between the two media types anymore (aside from the leadin-leadout and bitsetting thing). Ultimately we pay royalties to both camps now so it doesnt really matter.

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:16 pm

KristopherKubicki wrote:I wasnt aware there was even a difference between the two media types anymore (aside from the leadin-leadout and bitsetting thing). Ultimately we pay royalties to both camps now so it doesnt really matter.

Kristopher


DVD+R is harder to make, and harder to license. Market pressure keeps the prices the same, although DVD-R is cheaper to make.

and different companies pay different royalties for different products. Dye types, certifications, licensing, all cost differently.
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Postby kling on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:38 pm

Thanks everybody for their thoughts... some of the reactions seem to be more "ideological"-- from a technical point of view which one would you give the thumbs up + or -? Are there any differences in quality, durability, or compatibility... I have not had any toaster on my A06 with either format, but I seem to remember that some DVD readers did not like the + format, but were happy with the -...
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:40 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:DVD+R is harder to make, and harder to license. Market pressure keeps the prices the same, although DVD-R is cheaper to make.

maybe that's why there's more crap DVD- out there than crap DVD+ #-o
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:41 pm

KristopherKubicki wrote:I wasnt aware there was even a difference between the two media types anymore (aside from the leadin-leadout and bitsetting thing). Ultimately we pay royalties to both camps now so it doesnt really matter.

nope, there's more to it. differences at the technical level...
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:34 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:DVD+R is harder to make, and harder to license. Market pressure keeps the prices the same, although DVD-R is cheaper to make.

maybe that's why there's more crap DVD- out there than crap DVD+ #-o


Actually yeah, it's a really big factor in that. Plus Philips is REALLY harsh on people who don't pay proper licensing!
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Postby jsl on Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:03 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:NEC is officially on the DVD+RW alliance I think... they always develope DVD+R only drives first, and then bring in the dual format version. The same goes for LiteON.

NEC and Lite-On are not officially in any camp but they want to recieve orders from Dell and HP and they want plus only drives in their PCs. Even Toshiba has produced plus only drives for HP...

dolphinius_rex wrote:DVD+R is harder to make

I don't think so. If anything it is (was) the other way around:
The production of masters for the DVD-formats is somewhat more complicated due to the requirement for the pre-pits that are located on the land areas between the grooves. For these formats the groove has a fixed wobble frequency without modulation and the addressing and timing control is provided by the pre-pits.

The production of masters for the CD and DVD+ formats is relatively straightforward with only a single, wobbled laser beam being required to produce the groove.
Although traditional master recorders used for these formats are dual beam recorders, only one beam is actually switched on during the recording.
The more complicated DVD- formats, with pre-pits have, up to now, also been produced using a highly complex dual beam recorder. In this type of recorder, one beam is used to write the groove while the second beam produces the pre-pits. As optical discs are specified in terms of the readout signals obtained and not by the geometrical structures, the use of a dual beam recorder is only a method and is not a pre-requisite.
Source: Singulus

There now exists single beam method for DVD-R too but every DVD-R still needs to be pre-recorded with CSS copy protection though.

I also very much doubt your 10x more sold/made DVD-R numbers. In fact if I remember correct it was a study not that long ago showing DVD+R selling more in retail stores like Bestbuy.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:53 pm

jsl wrote:NEC and Lite-On are not officially in any camp but they want to recieve orders from Dell and HP and they want plus only drives in their PCs. Even Toshiba has produced plus only drives for HP...


I said I *THINK*... but the DVD+R/RW drives always come out first, so my assumption isn't unwarranted.

jsl wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:DVD+R is harder to make

I don't think so. If anything it is (was) the other way around:
The production of masters for the DVD-formats is somewhat more complicated due to the requirement for the pre-pits that are located on the land areas between the grooves. For these formats the groove has a fixed wobble frequency without modulation and the addressing and timing control is provided by the pre-pits.

The production of masters for the CD and DVD+ formats is relatively straightforward with only a single, wobbled laser beam being required to produce the groove.
Although traditional master recorders used for these formats are dual beam recorders, only one beam is actually switched on during the recording.
The more complicated DVD- formats, with pre-pits have, up to now, also been produced using a highly complex dual beam recorder. In this type of recorder, one beam is used to write the groove while the second beam produces the pre-pits. As optical discs are specified in terms of the readout signals obtained and not by the geometrical structures, the use of a dual beam recorder is only a method and is not a pre-requisite.
Source: Singulus

There now exists single beam method for DVD-R too but every DVD-R still needs to be pre-recorded with CSS copy protection though.

I also very much doubt your 10x more sold/made DVD-R numbers. In fact if I remember correct it was a study not that long ago showing DVD+R selling more in retail stores like Bestbuy.


Hey, I'm only quoting what I've been told by the manufacturing plants themselves, don't get mad at me if they tell me wrong. I'd *THINK* that they'd know what they're talking about, but hey, who knows?

As for sales figures... I'm 100% sure of what I said, but I'm sure results will vary from location to location. Of course Ritek and Optodisc are in the U.S. but all the suppliers/distributors in Canada that I've spoken to (and keep in mind, it's my job to talk to these people :wink: ) pretty much agree that DVD-R is massively outselling DVD+R. Mind you, DVD+R has picked up from nothing, to small amounts. I'm expecting 8x will make the big difference for DVD+R (or rather 8x recorded at 12x and 16x!).[/quote]
Last edited by dolphinius_rex on Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hoxlund on Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:01 am

DVD-R/W all the way baby

its all ive ever sold and used
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Postby rugger on Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:30 am

There is no CSS protection on any DVD-R disk, and it is impossible to use CSS on any recordable disk (thankfully).

DVD-R is more compatible with DVD players then DVD+R, even with bitsetting. Bitsetting simply gets around a firmware bug in many old DVD players.

DVD+R is a very good format for storing data, because it is easier for a drive to record. DVD-R is better for movies because it is slightly more compatible. Of course, your results will always vary from disk to disk. I am sure you can find DVD-R's that record/play better DVD+R's, and I am sure there are DVD+R disks that are more compatible with players then most DVD-R disks.
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Postby jsl on Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:03 am

rugger wrote:There is no CSS protection on any DVD-R disk

Sure there is. If you don't believe me then here is a quote from detailed German article (in C'T) about production of DVD media:
Während eine DVD+R nach diesem Schritt bereits fertig ist und nur noch mit einem Label bedruckt wird, muss auf eine DVD-R noch der CSS-Kopierschutzring gebrannt werden.
Dieser soll verhindern, dass man von geschützten Video-DVDs 1:1-Kopien anfertigen kann, ohne den CSS-Kopierschutz knacken zu müssen.

Babelfish translation:
While a DVD+R is already finished after this step and only with a label one prints on, still the CSS copy protection ring must be burned on a DVD-R. This is to prevent that one can make from protected video DVDs 1:1 copy, without having to crack the CSS copy protection.


DVD-R is more compatible with DVD players then DVD+R, even with bitsetting.

Source? There is basically impossible to show that either format is more compatible in practise as there are so many variables. In theory there are more DVD players recognizing the DVD-ROM book type than the DVD-R book type though, hence DVD+R with DVD-ROM book type should be slightly more compatible if the book type is the only issue. And most other parameters are more down to disc quality and other format independent parameters so...

Bitsetting simply gets around a firmware bug in many old DVD players.

Not exactly bug but they're simply not programmed to recognize the DVD+R book type and refuse to play all unknown book types. This may be because they're old or because the manufacturer didn't want the players to support DVD+R for "political" reasons.
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Postby Wesociety on Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:28 pm

@rugger, thanks for posting misinformation! :roll:
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Postby Scour on Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:54 pm

Hello!

I prefer DVD-R, because all the cheap DVD-Players I ever tested work fine with DVD-R.

Some of the players doesn´t work with DVD+R, some only after a update. But what can you do, when you have a player and can nowhere find an update :-?

What really better is, I don´t know. Some people say that you only found good DVD+R-media because Philips have higher quality-requirements, but I know that bad DVD+R-media slo exists like bad DVD-R-media.

I think that newer technologies like Blu Ray are on the market before the time comes that one DVD-Standard wins the war between DVD-R and DVD+R
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Postby thegdog on Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:29 pm

dodecahedron wrote:maybe that's why there's more crap DVD- out there than crap DVD+ #-o

Amen to that.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:35 pm

thegdog wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:maybe that's why there's more crap DVD- out there than crap DVD+ #-o

Amen to that.


New crap DVD+R is coming out though... now that people are getting better at dodging Philips :(
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Postby dodecahedron on Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:41 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
thegdog wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:maybe that's why there's more crap DVD- out there than crap DVD+ #-o

Amen to that.


New crap DVD+R is coming out though... now that people are getting better at dodging Philips :(

Ahh...good!
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Postby Phoenix '97 on Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:10 pm

I HAVE to have the extra 6MB offered on a -R disc. :D
But I like to use +RW for moving data around.
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