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Mitsui vs. Taiyo Yuden

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Mitsui vs. Taiyo Yuden

Postby Tonearm on Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:36 pm

I've read that Mitsui seem to be the best CD-R manufacturers around. Mitsui CD-Rs seem to cost twice as much as Taiyo Yudens though. Is Mitsui that much better than Taiyo Yuden? Also, Taiyo Yuden uses Cyanine dye and Mitsui uses that Ph---- one. I've read that the Ph---- dye holds up under undesirable conditions much better (heat, UV). Is that true?
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Postby cfitz on Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:39 pm

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 8061#58061

Did you have other specific questions?

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Postby Tonearm on Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:29 pm

Thanks a lot cfitz. I had forgotten that was in that thread. Your tests seem to be based on non-audio data. Is it reasonable to assume audio would behave in the same way?
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Postby Tonearm on Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:31 pm

Do all Taiyo Yudens have blue dye? I thought they were silver for some reason.
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Postby cfitz on Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:40 pm

Yes, audio data would behave the same way. At the level of these tests there is no difference between audio data and non-audio data. It is all stored as pits and lands (or their CD-R equivalents). And yes, all Taiyo Yuden discs have blue (cyanine) dye. I talked a little about the silver and silver/blue designations here:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 8552#58552

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Postby Tonearm on Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:58 pm

Cool, here's a question. Should blank CD-Rs be stored under the same strict conditions as written CD-Rs? In other words, does heat and UV light damage the disc's integrity or the data's integrity?
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Postby tazdevl on Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:06 pm

Tonearm wrote:Cool, here's a question. Should blank CD-Rs be stored under the same strict conditions as written CD-Rs? In other words, does heat and UV light damage the disc's integrity or the data's integrity?


Yes.
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Postby cfitz on Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:22 pm

Tonearm wrote:In other words, does heat and UV light damage the disc's integrity or the data's integrity?

Perhaps even more so than after writing, because not only would it affect data that has already been written, but also the ability to write the data in the first place, thus making it more vulnerable to additional degradation. So yes, as tazdevl wrote, take care of your discs both before and after writing if you are interested in maximizing longevity.

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Postby Scrondar on Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:24 pm

I found an online source that wants $29.00 /100 for Taiyo Yuden 48X, and $53.00 for Mitsui! Doing some quick math (lessee, drop the percent, move the 6, divide by 1) that's over 80% more for the Mitsui! For that kind of price difference they better be one helluva lot better. According to the results cfitz got, I ain't so sure. Me, I'm not too concerned with the archival aspect; I just don't want a pile of coasters ending up in landfill.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:49 pm

I have to admit that I was disappointed with the Mitsui. For the price and the reputation, I expected much better. At this point they aren't in my list of "personally approved" media that I intend to use on a regular basis. But I still have some of that batch left, and now that the warm, sunny weather is coming I will try at some point to conduct my own accelerated aging tests by leaving various discs out in the heat, humidity and sun. Maybe that will support Mitsui’s longevity claims, maybe it won’t. I know it’s not very scientific, but it's the best I can do with the resources I have.

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Postby vbl117 on Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:50 pm

Hum , in my country i can have easily Mitsui 24 X for 15 euro ( 10 CD-R box ) whereas i can have Fuji's 32 X for 11/12 euro ( 10 CD-R box ) .
Perhaps the prices you refer to are not significant .
Also i can have low quality CD-R without case at 0.82 euro by CD-R in the better case ( if you add the CD-R cases prices it is not really interesting ) .

In my country there is indirect taxes specially on CD-R ( plus the main indirect tax on consumer products fixed at 18.6 per cent ) . Also Ritek had to pay fines because U.E accused Ritek of dumping . So prices can be very different than yours .

But in any cases i don't think Mitsui media could be 80 per cent more expensive in your country . If i am wrong tell me .
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Postby cfitz on Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:16 pm

vbl117 wrote:But in any cases i don't think Mitsui media could be 80 per cent more expensive in your country . If i am wrong tell me .

No, Scrondar is right. In America Mitsui is significantly (almost prohibitively) more expensive than other media brands. I don't think I have ever seen Mitsui silver for less than about $0.50 per blank, while it is easy to get deals for Taiyo Yuden as low as $0.06 per blank on sale. And the Mitsui gold is even more expensive, going for around $0.80 per blank and up.

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Postby Tonearm on Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:25 pm

Where can I get the best deal online for 80 minute Taiyo Yudens?
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Postby cfitz on Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:32 pm

Tonearm wrote:Where can I get the best deal online for 80 minute Taiyo Yudens?

The $29 per 100 (shipping extra) that Scrondar found is a pretty good price as far as online CD-R merchants go. He linked to it in this thread:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 8601#58601

Note that even though this is pretty good for online merchants, you can do a lot better if you are willing to play the rebate game at your local retailer such as Best Buy.

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Postby vbl117 on Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:16 pm

Ok Cfitz . To be more accurate the 24X Misui media i am speaking are Golden Dye Mitsui Media ( and not the Gold ones ) .
If i trust all of you ( and i have no reason at all not to trust noticing made by three well reasoning people ) , Mitsui are more expensive in U.S ( in relative terms , because all CD-R media are cheaper in U.S than in France ) .
I guess U.E policy , France policy ( non proportionnal indirect tax on CD-R media plus main proportionnal indirect tax on consumer products as i have already said ) and Mitsui policy must be the causes of this difference .

In France when you buy petrol for your car , you buy mainly indirect taxes ( must be between 70/80 per cent taxes ) .
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Postby cfitz on Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:44 pm

vbl117 wrote:Ok Cfitz . To be more accurate the 24X Misui media i am speaking are Golden Dye Mitsui Media ( and not the Gold ones ) .

I assume those would be the equivalent of the Mitsui Silver media to which I referred - Ag reflective layer, phthalocyanine dye.

I'm not entirely sure why Mitsui is so expensive here (relatively speaking as you note). I can understand why the Mitsui Gold (with a real Au reflective layer) would be somewhat more expensive, but the Mitsui Silver is more of a mystery. It uses the same basic materials as CMC and Ritek. Perhaps the reason is that Mitsui's small market share prevents them from achieving economies of scale. And maybe they do take more care to monitor and tune their process and quality control. But that hasn't shown up in my tests of initial burn quality.

vbl117 wrote:I guess U.E policy , France policy ( non proportionnal indirect tax on CD-R media plus main proportionnal indirect tax on consumer products as i have already said ) and Mitsui policy must be the causes of this difference .

In France when you buy petrol for your car , you buy mainly indirect taxes ( must be between 70/80 per cent taxes ) .

That could explain some the differences in relative price. A large tax applied uniformly to all products will tend to diminish the effects of different production and sales costs between the various manufacturers.

This is off topic, will make me (more) unpopular, and if further discussion is desired we should take it to the Beer Garden, but I feel that higher gas taxes, phased in gradually, would be a good thing in the U.S. to discourage people from their wasteful, SUV gas-guzzling ways and to wean our dependence on oil that has caused so much suffering throughout the world over the years.

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Postby vbl117 on Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:40 pm

cfitz wrote:I assume those would be the equivalent of the Mitsui Silver media to which I referred - Ag reflective layer, phthalocyanine dye.


Yes on Mitsui website and on CD-R boxes these media are called "Golden Dye" media but specifications data written on Mitsui website and on CD-R boxes shows it is Silver media ( silver reflective layer ) .

cfitz wrote:I'm not entirely sure why Mitsui is so expensive here (relatively speaking as you note). I can understand why the Mitsui Gold (with a real Au reflective layer) would be somewhat more expensive, but the Mitsui Silver is more of a mystery. It uses the same basic materials as CMC and Ritek. Perhaps the reason is that Mitsui's small market share prevents them from achieving economies of scale. And maybe they do take more care to monitor and tune their process and quality control. But that hasn't shown up in my tests of initial burn quality.


I don't know really either . I am not sure that Mitsui has a so small market share which could prevent them from making mass production to lower their costs per unit produced . I think that production process and quality control is better as you already said . I had burned some ( 15 ) and i have not noticed any issues whereas i had one issue with a box of low quality phthalocyanine media ( Traxdata CD-R produced by Computer Italy Science , perhaps in an Italian plant ) . But i trust your tests showing Taiyo Yuden burning better for a lower price .

cfitz wrote:That could explain some the differences in relative price. A large tax applied uniformly to all products will tend to diminish the effects of different production and sales costs between the various manufacturers.


Yes . Also antidumping taxes are aimed to push some manufacturers ( Ritek for example ) to sell their CD-R at higher prices . I am not completely sure but it seems to me that some CD-R ( few in all cases ) are produced in U.E .

cfitz wrote:This is off topic, will make me (more) unpopular, and if further discussion is desired we should take it to the Beer Garden, but I feel that higher gas taxes, phased in gradually, would be a good thing in the U.S. to discourage people from their wasteful, SUV gas-guzzling ways and to wean our dependence on oil that has caused so much suffering throughout the world over the years.

cfitz


I tend to agree with you . Too low prices for unrenewables natural ressources are not a good thing ( it does not apply only to Petrol ) . It has always been stunning for me that such a country like U.S with a lot of natural ressources was obliged to import a lot of minerals and petrol from other countries because of his citizens way of life .
Some countrie like France ( but it seems to me that Spain and Italy are also concerned ) were too far in creating/increasing indirect taxes but obviously U.S lacks indirect taxes .
Also i understand what you mean when you say "that your dependance on oil has caused so much suffering .... years " . I'll not comment U.S actual policy here in detail ( perhaps in private or in "Rant and Raves forum like you suggested " ) . I can only say that foreign/french citizens ( myself not excluded ) anger against actual U.S policy increases . I understand very well that U.S policy is not necessarily approved by his citizens ( i don't know very well americans citizens ways of thinking thought ) ..
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Postby MikeTR on Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:19 am

That's the new global economy for you.

I didn't read through the entire tread (I was just looking for some info on the Mitsui). But it supports something I've been hating ever since moving back to The Netherlands from the U.S.: computer stuff is way too expensive on this side of the pond.

Especcialy CD-R media. I wish we could buy TY for $29/100. Such a spindle would cost me about $60 overhere. There is no way I could find it for less than $50.

That's why I was looing aroud for info on the Mitsui. I can get that for about $40/100 (Mitsui MAM's). I've been using TY for ever it seems. Never had a suprise coaster with it. Apart from the price, would it be wise to switch to Mitsui? According to cfitz's test it seems to give lower quality burns.
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Postby cfitz on Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:36 am

MikeTR wrote:That's why I was looing aroud for info on the Mitsui. I can get that for about $40/100 (Mitsui MAM's). I've been using TY for ever it seems. Never had a suprise coaster with it. Apart from the price, would it be wise to switch to Mitsui? According to cfitz's test it seems to give lower quality burns.

Interesting how the price points are reversed in Europe...

As for the wisdom of switching, I would encourage you to do some testing of your own. You have to remember that I only tested one batch, and with the huge difference in price over here (with Mitsui on the high end) it didn't make sense for me to pursue Mitsui media any further. Since the situation is reversed for you, it may be worthwhile giving Mitsui a chance yourself. Also, I tested in LiteOn and Yamaha burners. Maybe you have a different burner that likes Mitsui better. I'm not saying Mitsui is a pile of junk that should be avoided at all costs (I reserve that statement for the Memorex CD-RW discs), just that it didn't work out for me in my burners, and that, given its high price and supposed reputation, I was disappointed with the actual results I observed. Your mileage may vary... :wink:

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