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Nero 6 toghether with Nero 5.5 ?

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Nero 6 toghether with Nero 5.5 ?

Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:37 am

is it possible to install Nero 6 (demo) in addition to the existing Nero 5.5, not "over" it ?
is that what all you guys whov'e downloaded the Nero6 done, or are you replacing the 5.5 ?
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Postby David on Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:53 am

I'm replacing Nero 5.5 with 6(demo) the install won't let you have two versions installed it'll overide 5.5 or earlier.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:53 am

that's too bad.
i would like to install the demo to play around with it, but don't want to remove the old and trusty 5.5 (for which i have a license).
i'm not yet sure i'm going to buy Nero 6.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:35 am

I'm with you, dodecahedron. I'd like to test before getting rid of my licensed copy of 5.5, particularly seeing the raft of error reports that have been popping up regarding 6. :(

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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:16 pm

Guys let's be reasonable. Only way that would work if it used totally separate folders, reg keys, dlls etc.. Kind of makes it tough to upgrade. No?

Not to mention that every software release has bugs that need to be worked out, issues with the first release shouldn't be a surprise given the number of changes that occurred. Only thing we can do is email Ahead or bring them to Ahead's attention and hope they fix them soon.

Since you all have license keys for 5.5 it's pretty straightforward. Try Nero 6, you don't like it, uninstall and reinstall Nero 5.5. Takes all of 2 minutes.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:27 pm

tazdevl wrote:Guys let's be reasonable. Only way that would work if it used totally separate folders, reg keys, dlls etc.. Kind of makes it tough to upgrade. No?

We are being reasonable. And no, it doesn't make it hard to upgrade at all. Like you say, just use separate folders and registry entries. No problem at all. InCD could be difficult since it integrates with the system, but many people don't use it, and it is a separate product.

tazdevl wrote:Since you all have license keys for 5.5 it's pretty straightforward. Try Nero 6, you don't like it, uninstall and reinstall Nero 5.5. Takes all of 2 minutes.

Just that easy, huh? Except that sometimes uninstall's don't completely uninstall the software, leading to a mix of old and new that causes unexpected problems. Have you been reading this forum for a while? Do you know about the special cleaning utilities Craig Campbell has occasionally provided to people who were having trouble with leftover remnants that didn't completely uninstall? Not to mention that even if it did merely take "all of 2 minutes" to cleanly uninstall and reinstall, that is two minutes every time you want to switch between the apps to compare. Not very convenient.

tazdevl wrote:Not to mention that every software release has bugs that need to be worked out, issues with the first release shouldn't be a surprise given the number of changes that occurred.

Exactly the reason for wanting to be able to use both in parallel and not have to commit to one at a time.

Kind of interesting being lectured about being reasonable from the guy who has been bitching and moaning for the past week, in big bold letters, about "STILL NO UPGRADE EMAILS" despite the fact that Ahead's web site clearly stated when the release would be made available for download, you knew when it would be available, and you don't need a serial number for 30 days anyway. :roll: What an abrupt change from being Ahead's biggest detractor to its biggest apologist in just one day...

Sorry, I didn't realize that only you were allowed to have and post opinions here...

Give me a break...

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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:45 pm

cfitz wrote:
tazdevl wrote:Guys let's be reasonable. Only way that would work if it used totally separate folders, reg keys, dlls etc.. Kind of makes it tough to upgrade. No?

We are being reasonable. And no, it doesn't make it hard to upgrade at all. Like you say, just use separate folders and registry entries. No problem at all. InCD could be difficult since it integrates with the system, but many people don't use it, and it is a separate product.

tazdevl wrote:Since you all have license keys for 5.5 it's pretty straightforward. Try Nero 6, you don't like it, uninstall and reinstall Nero 5.5. Takes all of 2 minutes.

Just that easy, huh? Except that sometimes uninstall's don't completely uninstall the software, leading to a mix of old and new that causes unexpected problems. Have you been reading this forum for a while? Do you know about the special cleaning utilities Craig Campbell has occasionally provided to people who were having trouble with leftover remnants that didn't completely uninstall? Not to mention that even if it did merely take "all of 2 minutes" to cleanly uninstall and reinstall, that is two minutes every time you want to switch between the apps to compare. Not very convenient.

tazdevl wrote:Not to mention that every software release has bugs that need to be worked out, issues with the first release shouldn't be a surprise given the number of changes that occurred.

Exactly the reason for wanting to be able to use both in parallel and not have to commit to one at a time.

Kind of interesting being lectured about being reasonable from the guy who has been bitching and moaning for the past week, in big bold letters, about "STILL NO UPGRADE EMAILS" despite the fact that Ahead's web site clearly stated when the release would be made available for download, you knew when it would be available, and you don't need a serial number for 30 days anyway. :roll: What an abrupt change from being Ahead's biggest detractor to its biggest apologist in just one day...

Sorry, I didn't realize that only you were allowed to have and post opinions here...

Give me a break...

cfitz


If you actually read what I've written, I've been bitching about the execution, not the application. Two separate issues. I've worked in project management, marketing and product management for a long time and one thing I can't stand is poorly executed launches.

Every product has bugs and unless you're totally new to computers, it shouldn't be a surprise. Expecting that a recode of a software application will be problem free is a tad bit unrealistic. Only thing you can do is bring the issues to the attention of the devs and hope they fix it.

The installer is something that I wouldn't classify as an element that has detracted from the launch since it follows the paradigm of every other software update.

I guess they could package the installer to do a separate install or upgrade. There might be some other issues tied into that though that none of us are aware of, perhaps problems @ the ASPI layer. However, I can't remember any apps I've come across that allow you to run a previous version and upgraded version at the same time. Your line of thinking isn't original and probably hasn't been implmented for a very valid reason. Then again it might be tied into their business model, which from Ahead's perspective is a valid reason.

Use regcleaner to clean up any reg keys if you're worried about leftover dlls and reg entries if you uninstall and reinstall. Though just for shits n giggles, I've hopped back and forth between Nero 6 and 5.5, no problems here.

If I remember reading correctly, all those "special" utilities are for InCD. I refuse to use that app, never worked right in the 5 revs I tried.

Let me ask you this. Are bugfixes and optimizations more important at the moment or developing and having QA test an installer package that lets you do both a separate install and upgrade as well as running QA on having 2 versions of Nero up on the same machine? :roll:

Where do you want your break?

I haven't found anything that I would consider a showstopper which means the app met my near term expectations. The product has been launched, LOL BUT STILL NO UPGRADE EMAILS :P, so I can't knock them any more since Craig came clean on a few issues.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:57 pm

tazdevl wrote:If you actually read what I've written, I've been bitching about the execution, not the application. Two separate issues.

Gee, I guess you've got a little spy camera focused on my computer so you know what I've been reading and what I haven't. Or do you just read minds? I read and know what you've been writing. You've been needlessly fussing about not getting an email giving you your serial number and telling you that the product launch you know is coming is in fact coming. What would having had that email have gained you? Absolutely nothing. The demo is fully functional for 30 days. But not having the email gave you an opportunity to moan and complain in bunches of posts in this forum.

You've also been fussing that you wanted special early download privileges for "upgrade" customers who ordered a retail version of 5.5 after May 1. You're the marketing expert, you tell me: why should these people get special privileges for early update downloads? Just because Ahead was good enough to give them free upgrades? Isn't that enough of a privilege for them? Or are the few customers who bought 5.5 retail after May 1 somehow superior to the hundreds of thousands (maybe millions??) of customers who bought 5.5 before May 1 and aren't entitled to a free upgrade, but are entitled to a paid upgrade? Aren't they loyal customers too? Why should they be penalized? Are the free upgrade customers more equal than the paying upgrade customers?

I guess you eventually came around to this conclusion also, because at some point you stopped including the May 1 bit, and just started complaining about existing customers (presumably from any date) versus demo downloaders. You might have some point here, but then, lets be reasonable, tazdevl. Wouldn't that require an entirely separate download mechanism that could screen out demo downloaders who aren't existing customers and don't have existing license keys? Kind of makes it tough to get the Nero 6 release out on time when Ahead engineers are busy writing new download mechanisms, no? And couldn't you just as easily download from a link given on a web page as from a link in an email?? What's it take, like 2 minutes on a broad-band connection? And you only have to do it once.

tazdevl wrote:I've worked in project management, marketing and product management for a long time and one thing I can't stand is poorly executed launches.

And I've been working in software development and engineering for a long time, and one thing I can't stand is poorly written, buggy software.

tazdevl wrote:The installer is something that I wouldn't classify as an element that has detracted from the launch since it follows the paradigm of every other software update.

Great. That's you're opinion, not mine. And never mind the fact that it does not, in fact, follow the paradigm of every other software update. Even if it did, am I not allowed to have my own opinion on the matter?

tazdevl wrote:Every product has bugs and unless you're totally new to computers, it shouldn't be a surprise. Expecting that a recode of a software application will be problem free is a tad bit unrealistic.

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you for that deep and profound insight. I was so ignorant before you enlightened me. :roll: I might point out that the expectation that applications will include bugs and the implied consequence that customers will serve as beta testers is one reason we have so many buggy releases. But from your extensive project management background perhaps you don't feel that this is a problem?

tazdevl wrote:Only thing you can do is bring the issues to the attention of the devs and hope they fix it.

But dodecahedron and I aren't entitled to bring the issue of simultaneously running both versions to the attention of the developers and hope that they fix that next time around? :-?

tazdevl wrote:However, I can't remember any apps I've come across that allow you to run a previous version and upgraded version at the same time. Your line of thinking isn't original and probably hasn't been implmented for a very valid reason.

Then look harder. Take CD Doctor, available right here, as an example. And check the many unix and linux programs that allow this. It often isn't done for Windows, but in many cases this is due to choice, and not technical limitations. So it isn't unreasonable to ask for it. But apparently you, as a marketing person, feel qualified to answer whether or not different versions of Nero can be run in parallel. Maybe in addition to offering your marketing consulting services to Craig Campbell, you could also offer your software development consulting services. :-?

tazdevl wrote:Use regcleaner to clean up any leftover reg keys if you're worried about leftover dlls and reg entries.

Okay, so testing the new Nero with confidence should require a third-party product? How is that for good marketing?

tazdevl wrote:Though just for shits n giggles I've hopped back and forth between Nero 6 and 5.5, no problems here.

So apparently you were able to download Nero 6, even though you didn't have your email. I guess the email issue wasn't such a big deal after all. And just for sh*ts and giggles myself, I download Nero 6 from the site without the benefit of an email or a private download area. No problems here. Of course, I can say that with confidence. You can't say the same about your experience. All you can really say is that there aren't any problems you are aware of. :(

tazdevl wrote:Let me ask you this. Are bugfixes and optimizations more important at the moment or developing and having QA test an installer package that lets you do both a separate install and upgrade as well as running QA on having 2 versions of Nero up on the same machine? :roll:

Interesting. Well, my answer is that, to me, bug fixes are more important. That shouldn't be a surprise to you, since you aren't totally new to computers. But then, when did I express that a new installer was more important? I seem to recall dodecahedron saying it was too bad we couldn't run both versions in parallel and me agreeing. I don't recall saying "stop working on bug fixes and work on a version of 6 that can run in parallel with 5.5."

tazdevl wrote:Where do you want your break?

I'd like my break in being able to express my opinions without being subject to condescending lectures from you. Is that too much to ask? :roll: It's the same courtesy I extended to you. Did I ever tell you to be reasonable this past week when seemingly every other post you made contained the same specious complaint about not yet having your upgrade email?

By the way, half the time your repeated email complaints were as much off topic in given threads as kaikow's repeated posts about which files to download. Not only that, but his posts contain the same missing email complaint that you felt was perfectly fine to include in your posts. But yet you now feel it is appropriate to lecture him about off topic posting. I guess kaikow isn't entitled to his opinions either. "Dude", don't be a hypocrite.

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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:02 pm

Post is getting too long. I'm not quoting any more.

I'm not going to get into a lecture about launch strategy, customer segmentation, market segmentation, proper planning, market research, pricing and positioning and a host of other topics with an Engineer. Bottom line is that it could have been done much better, despite the problems they ran into.

I don't know how Ahead worked out their pricing model, but they have certain financial objectives they have to accomplish and I assume the majority of decisions were driven from that number. I'd also assume they followed a somewhat fundamental cost/benefit model for the justification of the rewrite to drive a fair number of decisions as well. You'd have to ask Craig about the whole 5/1 issue, though I believe he commented on it a while back and it was driven by the numbers. Ahead is a business and they are in it to make money. Maybe the costs of providing upgrades to everyone didn't work into the model.

My point with the nagging posts was a simple issue, I was trying to get Ahead to fess up to a few things. A big part of marketing and launches is ensuring that you do a good job trying to keep expectations in line or managing them as they change. Best way is fairly straightforward, proactive communication, doesn't even have to be lengthy. I was curious how reactive they would be and if they would come clean on anything in particular.

From a management perspective, a lot of the work that fell through the cracks could have been outsourced so the launch was near flawless. Craig indicated that they are engineering heavy, makes sense based on what I've seen. They also have a very strong OEM focus, reminds me of ATI 2-3 years ago. Notice where ATI is nowadays ;)? I'd really like to see Ahead not end up in that position. Perception issues take a very long time (18 months or more) and can be very expensive to dig yourself out of.

Some of the tasks were straightforward and critical enough to the launch that farming it out from the get-go to ensure there was no slippage would have been worthwhile. Good examples are key generation and fulfillment, website redesign and QA to name a few. Hell a lot of it could have been farmed out to India. Look how complex Nero 6 is, given the horsepower they used to develop it, don't you find it odd that key generation was done last? It is a bit irritating to get a demo message every time I open up Nero, but the fact that it is one of the simplest parts of the process, yet it remains undone, is what gets me.

I don't play with Unix/Linux. This app works in a windows environment, that's what I was referring to. As I said, I have yet to come across a Windows app that allows you to run 2 versions. You might know of a couple, bully for you. I also stated that I wasn't sure if the reasons for not using those types of upgrades were technical in nature or business related. Could be both, but given the fact that there aren't a ton of upgrades packaged in the manner you mentioned, I think it's safe to assume that there's several reasons.

Having a goal of a zero defect launch is something to shoot for when it comes to QA. But with the current hardware environment, despite all the compilers and objects floating around, you're always going to run into issues. My point was that a lot of folks have unrealistic expectations and seem to think that the extra week was enough time to ensure there are no bugs. Was I referring to anyone in particular? No. I would assume you you have an idea how many beta testers it would take to get close to zero defects.

So in your learned opinion, would you say that Nero 6 is "poorly written, buggy software"?

You should do some re-reading, I indicated that there might be issues with running 2 versions at the same time that we are not aware of. I in no way stated that I knew of an issue or stated that fact with any authority. Most engineers get caught in the technology and minutiae that they seem to forget that common sense serves most people fairly well when it comes to the overall issue.

Using a third party product isn't a huge problem since you're already using one to deal with InCD. To most end-users, it’d be transparent. Not to mention, it has nothing to do with marketing, that's a technical issue. I guess if you wanted to make it a marketing issue... you could buy a license, private label it, host it on the Ahead site, position it as a free registry tool that Ahead is providing to its "loyal" customers. There, now it's a marketing issue.

BTW might want to take a look ar your usage of specious and everyone is a hyprocrite, it all depends on the moment.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:51 pm

tazdevl wrote:I'm not going to get into a lecture about launch strategy, customer segmentation, market segmentation, proper planning, market research, pricing and positioning and a host of other topics with an Engineer.

Followed by just such a lecture... :roll:

Oh, by the way, sorry that this lowly engineer deigns to question your almighty wisdom and authority...

I don't care a bit about whether or not the launch of Nero 6 was exemplary or horrible from a marketing perspective. I didn't want to argue about it. But I thought that turning around your own arguments and applying them against you might help you see the hypocrisy of you lecturing me. But apparently you just don't get it. You've been riding Ahead's a** over a pretty trivial issue all week. And yet when I make one post stating that I am disappointed that I can't run 6 and 5.5 in parallel, you jump on me telling me I am the unreasonable one. :roll: If you can't understand the hypocrisy in that, I can't help you.

BTW might want to take a look ar your usage of specious and everyone is a hyprocrite, it all depends on the moment.

Well, based on the number of posts from people reporting their experiences with Nero 6, apparently most everyone was able to download and use Nero 6, even without their emails. So I guess your complaint was specious. As for calling everyone a hypocrite, I never did such a thing. I only called you a hypocrite. 8)

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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:56 pm

1) You missed the whole point behind not having the keys out before the demo. Based on the backlash and comments on the forums, it's pretty apparent it isn't a trivial issue.

2) I just rebutted a few things you said and explained a few views. That had nothing to do with a lecture in marketing.

3) Again you miss the point, I never said you called everyone a hypocrite, I just pointed out that we all are, just depends on the moment.

Fine, how about at the moment, bugfixes should have higher priority than working on an installer so you can run both? Maybe unreasonable isn't the best term... how about the timing just isn't there.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:01 pm

tazdevl wrote:Regarding kaikow, I've told the guy 5 times what to download and PMd him to try to help him out. Anyone with a 3rd grade reading comprehension level can figure it out how to download it. I've had a couple ppl PM me about him telling me that he's a bit "off" based on their interactions with him @ xtremesystems and it isn’t a language issue.

your last response to him was truely offensive.
i wanted to link to it, but can't find it.
apparently you saw fit to remove it. i'm glad you had the good sense to do that.

quite uncalled for. OK we're not all rocket scientists.
and you must admit that Ahead's website is confusing, especially to a newbie.
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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:05 pm

Yup... he had me totally exasperated. I laid out for him, step by step what he needed to do, told him to PM me with any questions. Then he posts 2 more "how to download posts".

Probably the way fitz thinks he's feeling. :lol:

BTW fitzie, I'm not having an argument, I'm having a discussion and the only reason why I'm speaking you to the way I am is due to your holier than thou attitude. Sometimes when you're trying to be clever it doesn't always work out.

BTW back to specious, my comments would have been if they were made after the launch.

Posts in forums are a funny animal, things can be misinterpreted.
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Postby cfitz on Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:21 pm

tazdevl wrote:1) You missed the whole point behind not having the keys out before the demo. Based on the backlash and comments on the forums, it's pretty apparent it isn't a trivial issue.

Backlash? Comments? Maybe I missed someone, but I did a quick search of posts on CDRLabs and CDFreaks over the last week and could find only two people complaining about not getting emails from Ahead regarding the Nero 6 release: you and your cohort kaikow.

tazdevl wrote:2) I just rebutted a few things you said and explained a few views. That had nothing to do with a lecture in marketing.

Lecture, explanation... looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck: is a duck.

tazdevl wrote:3) Again you miss the point, I never said you called everyone a hypocrite, I just pointed out that we all are, just depends on the moment.

The way I read it was "BTW might want to take a look ar your usage of (specious and everyone is a hyprocrite), it all depends on the moment." Maybe you meant otherwise; the sentence isn't clear to me. If I misread it, then I apologize.

You keep saying I am missing the point. Maybe I am missing whatever peripheral points you are trying to make. But if anyone is missing the main point here, I think it is you. Either that or you obstinately refuse to acknowledge it. The main point, the point that started all this, is that it was perfectly reasonable for me to have expressed my disappointment about not being able to run 6 at the same time as 5.5, and you shouldn't have called me unreasonable for doing so, particularly given your own history over the past week.

The truth is, had anyone else posted the same reply that you did, I would have just let it pass without comment. It isn't that big a deal. But after the fuss you have raised this past week, I just couldn't let it pass coming from you. That's why I reacted so strongly. I'll ask your forgiveness if I went over the top.

tazdevl wrote:Fine, how about at the moment, bugfixes should have higher priority than working on an installer so you can run both? Maybe unreasonable isn't the best term... how about the timing just isn't there.

Well, again, I never actually requested that Ahead work on a new installer for 6, but I'm glad to see you are at least allowing for the possibility that I wasn't being unreasonable. I suppose that is the closest I will get to an acknowledgement from you that calling me unreasonable was unfair. Good enough. I can live with that and let bygones be bygones.

As for your concern about my usage of the word "specious":
tazdevl wrote:BTW back to specious, my comments would have been if they were made after the launch.

All I can do is post some definitions:
specious
specious
Specious has nothing to do with timing. Something either is specious, or it is not. My usage of the word was meant to convey that even though your complaints might at first glance have seemed to be valid, in fact they were not. At least they were not in my opinion. You are free to hold a different opinion.

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Postby tazdevl on Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:41 pm

Let's just agree that this has been an interesting day of posting.
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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:04 am

WOW! I missed all that action while watching the NASCAR crashes!

And I've been working in software development and engineering for a long time, and one thing I can't stand is poorly written, buggy software.

Well, cfitz, me too. Forty years worth, started with slide rules and 80 column punched cards. One thing I've learned not to expect: bug free software. I don't mean that derisively or derogatorily. It is just a simple statement based on observational experience. Nor do I ever expect to see a crash free race (although I think that there have been a few).

quite uncalled for. OK we're not all rocket scientists.

Well dode, I truly am, and............

Having a goal of a zero defect launch is something to shoot for when it comes to QA.

tazdevl, that certainly is our goal for our rocket launches. However, once and a while, due to both hardware and software,...................well, I don't want to reminisce about those........

Later, folks,
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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:25 am

dodecahedron wrote:that's too bad.
i would like to install the demo to play around with it, but don't want to remove the old and trusty 5.5 (for which i have a license).
i'm not yet sure i'm going to buy Nero 6.


dode, I agree,

For purposes such as this one (and as a backup in the event that I crash this or, perhaps, to preclude crashing this), I have a 2nd HDD with a bootable (Windows XP Home, also), primary partition. I quite intend to install 6.0 on that partition for trial and evaluation. After thrity days, if I want to buy a key, I'll uninstall 5.5 from my primary HDD, do some reg cleaning with my Norton and/or SystemSuite and let'er rip. OTH, I may let'er RIP.

Forgive me, I ususally detest puns. :lol:
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:52 am

CowboySlim wrote:
...we're not all rocket scientists.

Well dode, I truly am

well, that's nice to know.
we have a physicist, a mathematician and a chemist among others, now a rocket scientist too! :D

(compsci guys get no mention, they're nothing special around here :wink: )
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Postby Spazmogen on Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:53 am

Well, I'm a civil servant on government time...



I'm not upgrading to Nero 6 anytime soon either.

The bugs will be cleaned up in time. But as for the DVD9-5 features, that's available elsewhere from some free apps.


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Postby cfitz on Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:49 pm

Tazdevl, I would be interested in knowing when you actually do get your email. If Ahead doesn't send them within the 30-day demo limit, then there really is a serious problem to complain about.

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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:54 pm

which Ahead can easily solve - simply extend the time limit on the demo.
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Postby tazdevl on Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:40 pm

These types of discussions are like the Special Olympics, everyone's a winner. I'm not going to bother searching posts in different forums to prove a point. We all have been hypocrites at one point, no one is better than anyone else.

My point more than anything is that you don't have to accept things as the consumer, which based on the original comments in the thread you seem to accept. However, looking at your responses about the keys, chances are you have your "deal with what they give me blinders on". Too many tech companies expect and count on that attitude from their end-users. By not bitching, moaning and communicating about it, we perpetuate that kind of behavior. Simply put, I don't prescribe to that line of thinking.

I don't think the dual installer is a bad idea, but seems to me that there are other things Ahead needs to focus on at the moment.

Bah maybe my male menstrual cycle is kicking in and working 2 consulting gigs at the same time is running me ragged and making me pissy. I just can't stand seeing something happen a certain way when I know I could help smooth things out. Sorry.

FYI key did show up today. Better late than never.

LOL slim I've got a funny Nascar story for you I'll have to tell you about later.
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Postby Silentbob343 on Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:37 am

What are some of the bug that some of you have experienced?
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