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Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

General discussion about recordable CD, DVD and BD media and write quality testing.

Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:40 pm

cfitz wrote:Another fine set of improvements. Thanks Mr. Wang.

I am having trouble downloading the zip file. WinZIP reports it as being corrupted. Is this just me?

cfitz


Worked just fine here.

I've had the same happen before though. Since then I use WinRAR for unpacking most files. I only use WinZip when WinRAR doesn't recognize the file.
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Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:43 pm

The direct link zip file is corrupted, but if I get from Karr's web page it's fine.
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Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:44 pm

rdgrimes wrote:The direct link zip file is corrupted, but if I get from Karr's web page it's fine.


Sorry, didn't know they were different files. I downloaded if from the web page as well.
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Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:48 pm

rdgrimes wrote:It's corrupted here too, but the install version works fine to update.

That's what I found.

Here's my first combined, manually scaled, multi-colored, expanded chart:

Image

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Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:53 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote: To *WHOM* is dolphin friendly tuna friendly?


Extremely friendly to the revenue of the tuna-fish selling company offcourse. :cry:
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Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:58 pm

Mr. Wang, please ask LiteON IT to make your software official, so that LiteON can properly compete against the new Plextor Plextools!

To heck with LiteOn, I would encourage Karr to market this for himself and charge money! I wouldn't have any problem handing him $20 for this nifty tool.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:07 pm

BUG FOUND:
when readin 99min CD-Rs, if you choose the "disc size" option for doing the C1/C2 errors testing, then you get stuck in a loop, once it finishes the CD, it starts again from the beginning.... you can avoid this hassle by using the "MSF" setting instead though.

Also, when I do testing on 99min CD-Rs, sometimes when I click start, it goes through the warm up, and then just simply says done, without doing any testing.

Suggestions:
If possible, I'd like to see realtime speed measurments on the testing. It's not a big deal, but I think it would be useful. Another idea is to have the ATIP Lead-In and ATIP Lead-Out listed on the save file, so that I can easily recognize what discs were tested.

Still great software!!! :D
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Postby taxman150 on Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:32 pm

karr_wang wrote:But if there is any usb drive existed , kprobe won't use ASPI driver.


Does this mean that kprobe will not work if you have a USB 2.0 drive and no system level ASPI installed?

I would love to use this wonderful new tool, but I'm confused by this last statement. I have a Lite-On 52246S drive installed in a USB 2.0 enclosure. I run Windows XP and the only ASPI layer I have installed is Nero ASPI. I do not have a system level ASPI and currently do not have any problems with the drive. If I download kprobe, it sounds as if it will install Force ASPI, but not use it since its a USB 2.0 drive. Does this mean that kprobe will not work?

Thank you,
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Postby MediumRare on Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:45 pm

Thank you for the ongoing improvements, Mr. Wang!!

I produced something very similar to cfitz' plot on my first try, and won't bother posting it. But when a wishes are being fulfilled as quickly as here, it whets the appetite for more. Let me repeat a couple of things and add some more comments on scaling

- with the increasing no. of options, it would be nice to be able to save the settings from session to session.

- I love the manual scaling option, but the minimum value for logarithmic plots emphasizes low error counts too much. A fixed minimum of 0.8 would allow counts of 1 to show without addind a complete decade to the plot (alternative to input minimum y-value, which is superfluous for linear scale).

- The subticks on the logarithmic scale are somewhat strange. I measured them on a printout and found roughly the following subdivisons:
Code: Select all
log10   linear
0.5     3.2
0.73    5.3
0.88    7.6
A subdivision in single units or (2,4,8,10) would be better.

- Is it possible to mark whole minutes on the time-axis (as an option maybe)? Perhaps the "exact" values show for the ticks are more useful for drive diagnosis...

- When repeating a scan, an error message re. minimum/maximum scaling appears and you have to exit and restart the program to continue.

Please take these points as suggestions for improvement and not as criticism- this is a very useful tool as it is and (from the time stamp of the executable) Mr. Wang seems to be staying up late to make it even better.

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Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:44 pm

MediumRare wrote:- The subticks on the logarithmic scale are somewhat strange. I measured them on a printout and found roughly the following subdivisons:
Code: Select all
log10   linear
0.5     3.2
0.73    5.3
0.88    7.6
A subdivision in single units or (2,4,8,10) would be better.

I noticed the same thing and agree with your suggestion. Here is a diagram to illustrate further (I started making it earlier, before you posted):

Image

I also think the vertical axis would be easier to read if the tic marks were a little longer and perhaps thicker. They are a little hard for my eyes to see.

MediumRare wrote:- Is it possible to mark whole minutes on the time-axis (as an option maybe)?

I agree this would make the time axis easier to read.

MediumRare wrote:- When repeating a scan, an error message re. minimum/maximum scaling appears and you have to exit and restart the program to continue.

I noticed what may be the same thing. The error message I saw was:

Code: Select all
Axis Maximum Value must be >= Minimum

When I looked at the configuration dialog to see what was wrong, I saw that the Auto Y-Axis setting, while still checked to utilize auto-scaling, had the grayed-out limit set to 0. I assume that was the source of the problem, since I was using a logarithmic graph, and the minimum was 0.1. I tried setting the maximum manually, toggling between linear and logarithmic, etc., but nothing I tried was able to reset it. Like you, I had to close the program and start it again. I have only noticed this problem when charting semi-logarithmic graphs. As I said, I think it is tied to the 0.1 minimum for the logarithmic scale conflicting with the initial 0 maximum in the Auto Y-Axis box.

Mr. Wang, let me reiterate what MediumRare said. These are not criticisms. You have done us all a great service by providing this program, and your responsiveness to our requests and suggestions has been outstanding. So when we find and report bugs we are just trying to help you make this great program even better. :)

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Postby KCK on Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:11 pm

karr_wang:

K's Probe 1.1.4 works on my XP notebook without any special ASPI. :D

I simply downloaded kprobe.zip, put the two unzipped files bmglib.dll and kprobe.exe in a separate directory, and made a shortcut to kprobe.exe.

My Lite-On LTR-48125W VS0B sits in an external IEEE 1394 (FireWire) enclosure with the Oxford bridge OXFW911 (ME-320F from www.welland.com.tw) connected to the IEEE 1394 port of Dell's Latitude C840, running Windows XP Pro SP1.

I have never installed any system ASPI, just Nero Burning ROM 5.5.10.20 and InCD 5.52.40. BTW, I know that ForceASPI shouldn't hurt, but I prefer not to install anything that is not really necessary.

K's Probe seems to be working fine, reporting "Driver: Windows built-in" in the "About" tab. Thanks a lot for this little gem. :P

Could you (or maybe someone else) confirm that I'm not loosing any functionality by not installing ASPI? Maybe K's Probe won't use ASPI for FireWire drives anyway (just like for USB drives)?

taxman150:

K's Probe (installed from kprobe.zip as above) should work with your USB 2.0 enclosure. Karr Wang simply said that it doesn't use ASPI drivers for USB drives.
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Postby CDHero on Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:02 pm

taxman150 wrote:
karr_wang wrote:But if there is any usb drive existed , kprobe won't use ASPI driver.


Does this mean that kprobe will not work if you have a USB 2.0 drive and no system level ASPI installed?
If I download kprobe, it sounds as if it will install Force ASPI, but not use it since its a USB 2.0 drive. Does this mean that kprobe will not work?

Thank you,


You misunderstand my meaning.
KProbe won't use ASPI driver when you have a usb drive.
But it still works , because it will use Windows built-in driver.
But I cannot promise it will work properly.
Because a unique command to start C1C2 measurement will hang up
at some systems.
Please take it easy , it will not crash your system .
If your system hang,just reboot your system.

Say again , all kprobe to do is for compatibility.
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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:24 pm

Mr Wang has released a new build of version 1.1.4 that corrects the "Axis Maximum Value must be >= Minimum" error. It is at the same links, and is still called version 1.1.4, but the creation date is April 10, 2003 at 12:06:44 PM and the modified date is April 10, 2003 at 3:58:22 PM.

Thank you! :)

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:38 pm

Another Bug Found:
The software stops testing the medium when it reaches an area that is un-readable. Would it be possible to make it so that it continues on until it finds a readable portion of the disc??

as was stated before, this isn't a complaint. I'm just trying to help make really good software even better :D
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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:24 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:Another Bug Found:
The software stops testing the medium when it reaches an area that is un-readable. Would it be possible to make it so that it continues on until it finds a readable portion of the disc??

This is something we've noted already. I'm not sure if I'd call it a bug or just a design decision. But yes, I personally would like to see K's Probe push on and try to find additional readable sections where it could continue testing. I prefer to see gaps in unreadable sections with the test continued further out, like CD Doctor does, than to have the test halt altogether at the first unreadable section. But that is just personal preference. This isn't an issue of right or wrong, in my opinion.

By the way, welcome to the CDRLabs forums dolphinious_rex.

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:56 pm

Thanks cfitz! I generally stick to the CDR-Info forum, but this site was linked to regarding this new software and I knew I had to get involved. This software could REALLY help the reviews that I write, and I'm really hoping to see Jitter measurment included in a future release :wink:

I've probably run this software (version 1.1.4) through nearly 100 C1/C2 error testings or more now, and I am VERY satisfied with it :D

I have a question regarding the DVD testing, will you need the LiteON DVD Burner to do the testing properly? or will it work with a LiteON DVD-ROM??
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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:16 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:I have a question regarding the DVD testing, will you need the LiteON DVD Burner to do the testing properly? or will it work with a LiteON DVD-ROM??

The Tilt Analysis is said to work only with the upcoming DVD writer, but the PIPO testing in the Write Strategy tab seems to work just fine with LiteOn's DVD-ROM drives (reasonable looking results have been measured with the 165H and 166S models).

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Postby MediumRare on Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:41 pm

The maximum/minimum error is (for all practical purposes) gone now. It did occur again after about the 5th consecutive scan- this time at the end of the scan, which didn't complete. I had played around a lot with scaling and combined plots and can't say what I did in which order. So it's not reproducible.

cfitz wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:Another Bug Found:
The software stops testing the medium when it reaches an area that is un-readable. Would it be possible to make it so that it continues on until it finds a readable portion of the disc??

This is something we've noted already. I'm not sure if I'd call it a bug or just a design decision. But yes, I personally would like to see K's Probe push on and try to find additional readable sections where it could continue testing. I prefer to see gaps in unreadable sections with the test continued further out, like CD Doctor does, than to have the test halt altogether at the first unreadable section.

Actually K's Probe does continue from some gaps- it doesn't seem to be quite as tolerant as CD Doctor, and I've had disks that caused both to strike at max. speed. I'd prefer it to try harder, too. They both read this one, with gaps, the Dr. with fewer of them:
Image

Incidentally, there'a a lot of things visible in these scans- the scaling sample cfitz posted is obviously from a disk burned with zone-clv, in 5 zones!

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Postby tlotz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:59 pm

I have a quick question about the Kprobe tool. It should work right with rebadged LiteOn drives, right? I have a TDK 5200B (52/24/48) rebadged LiteOn LTR-52246S. Kprobe doesn't require a real LiteOn, correct? I would think it would work with 100% functionality with any modern LiteOn *made* CD-RW drive, regardless of what name is reported by the drive's ID string.
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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:18 pm

tlotz wrote:I have a quick question about the Kprobe tool. It should work right with rebadged LiteOn drives, right?

That's correct.

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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:45 pm

MediumRare wrote:Actually K's Probe does continue from some gaps- it doesn't seem to be quite as tolerant as CD Doctor, and I've had disks that caused both to strike at max. speed. I'd prefer it to try harder, too. They both read this one, with gaps, the Dr. with fewer of them:
Image

Hey, neat graph. That's the first I've seen with such high error levels. Nice to see that K's Probe can plot them just fine (CD Doctor truncates above ~200). I had no reason to suspect it wouldn't, but it is nice to actually see. That's also the first I've seen that showed K's Probe riding out a bad section. I guess it can do it in some cases. Like you say, let's hope it learns to try harder! :)

MediumRare wrote:Incidentally, there'a a lot of things visible in these scans- the scaling sample cfitz posted is obviously from a disk burned with zone-clv, in 5 zones!

Good observation, but not quite right. It was burned in a Yamaha CRW-3200EZ, which burns in P-CAV mode. I think what you are seeing is the drive compensating for the mixed quality often exhibited by CMC media. The disc in question is an Imation-branded CMC disc. It has been too long for me to remember exactly what happened while that disc was being burned, but apparently the drive attempted to compensate for some burning difficulties by either dropping the burn speed (the equivalent of Z-CLV in reverse) or by discretely adjusting burning parameters on the fly. Still, despite the adjustments, the overall burn still came out okay. Not as good as TY, but not bad either.

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:32 pm

cfitz: I can tell you from experiecne that K-Probe has no problem displaying thousands of errors. So far it's been fine with displaying error amounts of slightly over 7000 per second (or frame, or sector...what is it measuring against again??). I have a lot of CD-Rs that I'm going through, and each one gets a turn with K-Probe :wink:
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Postby MikeTR on Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:52 am

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:12 am

The zip file appears to still be version 1.1.4
the executable is 1.1.5 though

any idea what the official changes are??
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:17 am

just downloaded it - the .zip file is 1.1.5!
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