Home News Reviews Forums Shop


PI/PIF/POF Spike With NEC ND-4550A

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

PI/PIF/POF Spike With NEC ND-4550A

Postby Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:53 am

I'm guessing there aren't a lot of people with the NEC ND-4550A.. and even fewer with it and the BenQ DW1640A.

Anyway, when scanning discs burned by the NEC on the BenQ, I'm seeing a PI/PIF/POF spike at the 2.25GB mark. I'd say this is happening with about 70% of the single layer DVD+R and DVD-R media I've tested. As you can see, this causes a dip in the transfer rate graph. Of course, when scanned with a Lite-On drive, there is no spike at all. :roll:

These discs have all been burned at 12x or 16x. I still need to slow it down to see if it happens at 8x or lower.

Thoughts?
Attachments
NEC.Verb.16x.DVD+R.1.PNG
NEC ND-4550A - KProbe
NEC.Verb.16x.DVD+R.1.PNG (11.48 KiB) Viewed 3825 times
NEC ND-4550A Read Verb 16x DVD+R 1.jpg
NEC ND-4550A - Verbatim 16x DVD+R - Stress Test
NEC ND-4550A Read Verb 16x DVD+R 1.jpg (53.1 KiB) Viewed 3839 times
NEC.BenQ.Verb.16x.DVD+R.1.jpg
NEC ND-4550A - Verbatim 16x DVD+R - BenQ DW1640 Scan
NEC.BenQ.Verb.16x.DVD+R.1.jpg (52.39 KiB) Viewed 3823 times
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby RJW on Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:29 pm

Hmm would be a ideal candidate to pull through one of these overpriced profesional analyzers to see if there's anything which causes this behaviour.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby carl on Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:24 pm

I've seen the same thing on the 35XX hardware.
carl
Buffer Underrun
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:20 pm

Postby Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:51 pm

carl wrote:I've seen the same thing on the 35XX hardware.


Really? I didn't see spikes like this. Then again, I tested those with the DW1620. Maybe I should try a few of the discs with it.
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby Dartman on Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:13 pm

My 3500 doesn't do spikes like that either. Could be a anamoly with the 1640
and error testing maybe. They also claim the funny spikes at the end of some 16x burns aren't really there so who knows. Try the 1620 again and see if it's the same. I spose as long as the disk works...
User avatar
Dartman
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 2:13 pm
Location: USA

Postby ala42 on Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:26 pm

Benq drives are quite jitter sensitive. 15.8% is too much for the drive, causing the PIFs which other, less jitter sensitive drives do not see.
LiteOn/Benq/LG/NEC/Pioneer/BTC/Samsung stuff: MediaCodeSpeedEdit tool
User avatar
ala42
CD-RW Thug
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:12 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:55 pm

ala42 wrote:Benq drives are quite jitter sensitive. 15.8% is too much for the drive, causing the PIFs which other, less jitter sensitive drives do not see.


Good point. The question then is what's causing the jitter to spike there? On average, the jitter is between 9-11 on most of the discs.
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby Gabe on Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:02 pm

ala42 wrote:Benq drives are quite jitter sensitive. 15.8% is too much for the drive, causing the PIFs which other, less jitter sensitive drives do not see.


Yeah, Benq-drives don´t like higher jitter and shows sometimes very high PIF in critical jitter-zones.

But the LiteOn shows these spikes, too, and LiteOn isn´t very sensitive when a media have higher jitter.

But these spikes are sometimes on media that´s burned with my NEC 3500 (and some other NECs, too)
Attachments
Sony DVD+R 8x 4,7GB @12x NEC 3500 2.TC.PNG
Sony DVD+R 8x 4,7GB @12x NEC 3500 2.TC.PNG (11.89 KiB) Viewed 3745 times
Primedisc DVD+R 8 Olli MP3 1 NEC 3500 2.TC RC3.PNG
Primedisc DVD+R 8 Olli MP3 1 NEC 3500 2.TC RC3.PNG (11.46 KiB) Viewed 3743 times
Tevion DVD+R 8x @12x Olli Musikvideos 19 NEC 3500 2.19.PNG
Tevion DVD+R 8x @12x Olli Musikvideos 19 NEC 3500 2.19.PNG (12.17 KiB) Viewed 3752 times
WD: WD6400AAKS, WD10EALS, WD20EARS, WD10EALS
Hitachi: 7K1000.B 1 TB, 7K1000.C 1 TB, 7K2000 2TB, 7K3000 2TB
Seagate: ST2000DL003, ST31000528AS
Samsung HD204UI
LG GH-22NS50
Plextor PX 755 1.04
Benq DW 1670 1.03
Optiarc AD 7173A 1.01
Asus DRW 20B1LT 1.00
Gabe
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:35 am

Postby Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:57 pm

I think some of you guys are confused about the spike I'm referring. I'm not talking about the PIF spikes you see when testing with Lite-On drives. I'm talking about this one:
Attachments
NEC.BenQ.TY.8x.DVD+R.CDSpeed.spikes.jpg
NEC.BenQ.TY.8x.DVD+R.CDSpeed.spikes.jpg (104.94 KiB) Viewed 3737 times
Last edited by Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby Ian on Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:58 pm

For those wondering, if I slow the writing speed to 8x, there is no spike. I'm gonna have to talk to NEC about this one on Monday.
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:41 am

Ian wrote:For those wondering, if I slow the writing speed to 8x, there is no spike. I'm gonna have to talk to NEC about this one on Monday.


Maybe it's time I called in a favour with the Pro testing equipment? Of course, I'll need the actual disc in question :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby ItalianJob on Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:00 am

As pointed ala42, the jitter reported is horrible #-o
User avatar
ItalianJob
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: France

Postby Gen-An on Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:14 am

Gen-An
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:20 pm

Postby RJW on Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:56 am

The data on YSS shows that it's between two calibrations points.
Also with 8x this seems to fall exactly in a calibration zone unlike 12x and 16x.

All we now know is that the benq reports higher jitter at that point which results in higher errors.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby jsl on Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:12 pm

Ian wrote:Really? I didn't see spikes like this. Then again, I tested those with the DW1620. Maybe I should try a few of the discs with it.

Perhaps not as bad as the spikes in your scans here but all NEC drives have given spikes for CAV burns when scanned on BenQ drives. Example from your ND-3520A review:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/images-view.php3?imageid=8165
The same thing could also be seen with 16x CAV burns from the Pioneer DVR-109:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/yss/a09j/a09jdvd16x.htm
DVR-110 doesn't seem to give these spikes though.
jsl
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:34 am

Postby Ian on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:43 pm

For those wondering, there's also a spike when writing at 12x (actually 13x).. just later in the session.

Looking at the test results, the spike seems to occur when the drive reaches a certain writing speed. It's hard to tell, but it looks about 12.25x-12.5x.
Attachments
NEC.BenQ.TY.8x.DVD+R.CDSpeed.12x.jpg
NEC.BenQ.TY.8x.DVD+R.CDSpeed.12x.jpg (55.13 KiB) Viewed 3663 times
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14883
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:13 pm

When you do a transfer rate test using the NEC itself, does the error show up at all? (i.e. a dip in speed?)
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby ItalianJob on Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:09 pm

The maximum jitter is again very impressive : 18% :o
And PO Failures #-o
User avatar
ItalianJob
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: France


Return to DVD Writers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

All Content is Copyright (c) 2001-2017 CDRLabs Inc.