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POLL: Unofficial Presidential Election vote (poll)

General discussion. Come introduce yourself. Talk about whataver you want!

Who is your choice for President of the US?

John Kerry
George W. Bush
Neither.. both suck!
Total votes : 44

Postby jase on Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:16 pm

sorry, Jase.
while i love the BBC for their documentaries and comedies (i think one might almost say i'm an Anglophile, at least where TV is concerned for sure. i'm a die hard Dr. Who fan, probably one of very few in Israel. This Life, Teachers are just 2 off the top of my head...great comedy) the last thing that can be said of the BBC is that their news department is objective.

Honestly, I disagree. You don't see the whole story.

The BBC have run hatchet-jobs on European corruption, the Unions, they refused a John Pilger documentary critical of Israel last year (which ITV then took up).

The BBC do try very hard to be objective, but they're also duty-bound to be investigative. Their report on Blair's dossier, which they were crucufied for, has been shown since to be pretty much 100% true. They make programmes which reflect all sides, which at times offend people.

Their news output was shown during the Iraq War to be the most pro-war of all Brit outlets, one of the others being Rupert Murdoch's Sky TV.

I will stand up for the BBC. And even if they weren't objective, they are saints compared with Fox, it has to be said.

Whilst I agree with much of what you say about the French *Government* (let's be clear about that), I do find it amusing that it's perfectly OK to be anti-French, anti-German or even anti-Brit, but being anti-US is seemingly a crime punishable by death. This is not a sign of a healthy attitude IMHO.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:26 pm

concerning BBC news:
i admit the only stuff i hear is world news, mostly relating the the middle east. i make no judgement on BBC news in other arenas. perhaps i should've made this clarification in my previous post.
but we can agree to disagree :D

i will also grant you this - i can't really claim to be 100% objective myself :wink:

as for anti-US punishable by death, were these words directed at me? i don't really follow.
i'm a US citizen, and UK citizen too as it happens (and proud of both! usually, more proud than of my Israeli citizenship) but have no qualms at being 'anti US' when i feel that it's right.
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Postby jase on Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:33 pm

No it wasn't aimed at you, it was general. I've noticed a pattern amongst some of the more radical conservatives in the US media (Bill O'Reilly I'm looking at you here) who think it's perfectly OK to make deeply offensive remarks about French *people* (so the average French person is a decadent racist is he? O'Reilly you're an idiot), but then criticise foreign criticism of US Government policy as "Anti-American" :roll:

The distinction seems to be lost on some of these commentators. If someone makes a negative or disparaging remark about Hawkish or Neo-Conservative views in the Whitehouse, that is a comment against right-wing ideology, not the state of America. One could make the same comments about similar views held by the government of Poland, does that make the speaker anti-Polish? No, of course not. There is a huge difference between that and offensive remarks made against a culture or society.
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Postby MonteLDS on Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:54 pm

lot of last second voters seem to be voting for the loser :lol:
i guess some people say voting results are not enough
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Postby bill on Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:47 am

jase wrote:
Thanks for responding, it's nice to know that at least one Brit feels like they can stand beside the US again. I had asked because when I watch BBC America or read BBC online there appears to be a strong dislike (or even hatred) for the USA. Because of that dislike I was afraid it would cloud your nation's judgment to work with us if Iran continues on the current course.

The BBC is not anti-US, its programmes provide a forum for all sides and, lacking the understandable US patriotism you see in the American outlets (obviously, why would they be pro-US any more than anti?) can appear to be anti at times, but they aren't. They have a slight left-wing bias, but that is not the same thing.

There is a *lot* of anti-Blair sentiment in this country, which translates to a perceived anti-Bush bias in correspondents on the Brit media becasue Blair is so allied to Bush. I have never been pro the war in Iraq in the way it was implemented; I don't think the inspectors were allowed to do their job; I do think that the intelligence was skewed for political gain; and I also think that if we were going to go in the whole effort should have been far better funded and with a lot more soldiers on the ground. But I am absolutely convinced that we now need to stay in Iraq until the job is done 100% properly (and that is one of many areas where I am in disagreement with the "anti-war" crowd).

Most Brits are very pro-US at heart, believe me, even if not all of us trust Bush. But it doesn't stop us from having the right to question Blair if we think he's making a big mistake. Questioning a war does not make one anti-American.

In some ways it was a good thing Bush was re-elected; the last thing needed now is a policy of withdrawal, or a power vacuum whilst a new US president gets a handle on things. Also I think the two leaders should be there for the end of the proceedings; if it succeeds (as I hope it will), Bush/Blair will be the heroes and will have been totally vindicated. On the other hand if it ends in humiliation, I want to see the pair of them crucified politically for their mistake. It's only fair, either way.

Going back to the BBC, I think the reason why the argument over here has become so nasty is that Blair leads the Labour Party, the equivalent to the US Democrats (although more left-wing historically). Blair himself is a former member of CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, a pacifist left-wing group dedicated to the removal, unilaterally, of the UK Nuclear deterrent), and the left feels politically disenfranchised by this rather right-wing leader of their party. When you get a political vacuum, the "wronged" party tend to become vocal and abusive. This is an indictment more of the poor state of our own politics here than anything going on in America. Auntie Beeb are only reflecting the mood of some of the country.

We're at a crossroads here. Do we side with the US, or go in with Europe. We've always been somewhere in the middle, but it's all coming to a head now. As for France and Germany, well the Germans have a tendency to be pacifists these days so allowances must be made for them, and I sympathise with their viewpoint. The French however make a living out of being difficult, and this should come as no surprise. They've always wanted to control Europe as a counter to the US (with the UK/Germany paying for it all of course ;)) and only this week Chirac has managed to offend Blair and Allawi who were over to try to rebuild bridges. They can be a funny bunch lol.

we cannot afford to wait until there is a nuclear capacity as is now speculated with North Korea....

Ah Jeez... North Korea, and Taiwanese independence are the two things more likely to lead to nuclear armageddon right now than just about anything else. One thing you have to remember is that dicking with a country as powerful as China is a stupid idea unless you have absolutely no other choice, and the chances are China will defend N Korea if they feel they have to. I really wouldn't like to be the one having to make decisions about Korea in particular right now.


I spent the last week reading and watching the BBC with a more open mind since your reply. Though I still do believe the BBC has left leaning slant to the news it doesn't appear to be any more or as dramatic than that of Fox news to the right. I guess that's how we get a balance of views, by watching them both... This had me feeling a little disgusted with the BBC - http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17424
The original picture was that of (sadistic) Lyndie England standing over nude Iraqis heaped in a pile. I honestly believe it was more than a simple mistake, more like a slant or attitude.

I would like to apologize for using the word hatred in my previous post, * "I had asked because when I watch BBC America or read BBC online there appears to be a strong dislike (or even hatred) for the USA."* ... it wasn't fair statement.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Tony Blair, the Labour party and Europe. It puts what I read in the British press in a better perspective. I wish you Brits good luck as you sort it all out.

Take care,

PS, Brits shouldn't worry about us Americans ( too much :wink: ) , eight years of Clinton then eight years of Bush, the pendulum is always going to swing...
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Postby jase on Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:23 pm

Yes, the BBC does have a left-leaning slant on a lot of its news output, but this is probably because of the system it represents. It's part of the "establishment" (elite if you will), paid for by an effective tax on the UK population (namely a $200/year licence fee every TV owner must pay). In return the BBC must produce a great deal of Public Service Broadcasting to justify its existence. This is both its great strength and, in some way, its weakness as well. It doesn't have to respond to market pressures, and has been accused of some complacency as a result. The basis for the BBC is a leftist institution. No matter how hard it tries there will always be some left-leaning as a result.

I'd be interested to see how you judge the journalism of the UK's main two commercial TV news outlets, ITN (www.itn.co.uk) and Sky News (www.sky.com/news). I've seen plenty on these two that could also be judged leftist, even though official studies show a slight right-wing leaning in both organisations.
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