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Quality of Taiyo Yuden (Verbatim DataLife Pastel) decrease?

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Quality of Taiyo Yuden (Verbatim DataLife Pastel) decrease?

Postby Halc on Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:23 pm

I've bought a bunch of TY CD-R media sold under Verbatim DataLife (not plus) Pastel 50 pcs cake.

These are identified as:

Disc Type CDR (A+)
Manufacturer Taiyo Yuden Company Limited
Material Cyanine
Media ID 97:24:01
Length 79:59:72
Capacity 702,80 MB
Free Size 0,00 MB
Free Blocks 0
Total Tracks 1
Maximum Read Speed 40x
Maximum Write Speed 40x
Current Write Speed 40x CLV
Write Speed Performance Descriptor 1 40x CLV
Write Speed Performance Descriptor 2 32x CLV
Write Speed Performance Descriptor 3 24x CLV
Write Speed Performance Descriptor 4 16x CLV
Write Speed Performance Descriptor 5 8x CLV

I've written a few of these with LiteOn LDW-851S, Plextor PX-712, NEC ND2510A and BenQ DW1600A.

The results are very variant.

Some burns scan great on all software (kProbe, Plextools, CD Dvd Speed, UM doctor Pro II), but some have very high intermittent C1 spikes and sporadic C2 spikes as well.

I'm a little worried about this.

Anybody know if these are true TY discs or not?

Or has the quality of TY discs started to detoriorate (under Verbatim label)?

These are brand new cakes of 50 CD-Rs sold in bulk.

regards,
halcyon
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Postby MediumRare on Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:27 pm

I bought a cake box of those a couple of months ago. I haven't used all that many yet, but haven't really seen a problem with them. Mind you, I burn them with the LTR 48246S CD burner.

I didn't have any choice until 6 weeks ago and the SOHW 1213S I picked up then is pretty shitty with CD's (too) so I don't really have much choice now either.

I'll keep an eye open.

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Postby cfitz on Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:41 pm

Ahhh, the good old days.... I remember when I used to burn Taiyo Yuden on an LTR-48246S. Wait! I still do. :wink:

Sorry Halc, I've got no experience with the latest TY media. I'm still working on my existing stash and burning on my antique equipment like MediumRare.

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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:43 am

whoa! bad news!
a significant portion of my TY stock is these DataLife Pastels!
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Postby cfitz on Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:52 am

No it isn't. [-X

:wink:

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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:53 am

alas, yes it is #-o
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:58 am

dodecahedron wrote:alas, yes it is #-o

More info please...

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Postby Halc on Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:43 pm

I just did a bunch of burns and I'm now testing these. It'll take time, as I'm testing various burns with various burners using various test drives.

I'll provide some sample graphs later on.

However, I must say that I'm a little surprised that modern CD-R discs (i.e. brand new, not old stock) from a reputable label (Verbatim) and a reputable manufacturer (Taiyo Yuden) perform this inconsistently on modern burners (full list later on).

I really wish there was just an sure quality source for phthalocyanine gold layer and scratch resistant high QA media.

I still use CD-Rs a lot and will continue to use them (as do a lot of organisations).

Why can't I seem to be able to find good media easily anymore <sigh> :/
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:57 am

Halc
please keep up informed on your research results.

BTW did you burn any using a CDRW drive? re-reading your post it appears that all the drives you used were DVD burners.
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Postby Halc on Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:49 pm

Yes, DVD burners till now.

Haven't tested burns on CDRW burners yet.

Still testing, I've hit issues with my setup.

My LiteOn 851S is not usable for C1/C2 testing (all results are way too optimistic) and I just got rid of my LTR-52327s. Have to install it back again... <sigh>

On top of that my UM Doctor Pro II trial just ran out :/
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Postby Halc on Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:27 am

EDIT: corrected the link to the first image (was to a burn on Nec ND2510 which was fine, is now a link to burn scan on Mitsumi, which is not so fine).

Here's one example of a burn with Mitsumi CW7503 that performs well on other media (burn at 8x):

Image

Image

I've also gotten usable, but less than optimal burns with Nec ND2510A (burn at 24x):
Image


And even on Plextor PX712 which usually loves TY (burn at 32x):
Image

Granted the last two are not catastrophic, nor are they anywhere near the level I was expecting.

As baseline, here's a couple of burns at 32x on Nec ND2510A on MCC and MBI media respectively (to show a relative level of scan result):

Please notice that scale on Y axis is now 50 max (sorry for this change):
Image

Image

So you can imagine that I'm slightly worried after having bought 6 cakes (50 discs) of these TY (Verbatim DataLife PastelDisc) discs.

However, I have also gotten good burns out of these, where c1 average is below 1 and no C2 at all.
Last edited by Halc on Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:40 pm

very upsetting.
it seems that you need to test each and evey disc you burn! :o :evil:

my current stock of these: 180.
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Postby MediumRare on Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:10 pm

dodecahedron wrote:very upsetting.
it seems that you need to test each and evey disc you burn! :o :evil:

I've done this ever since CD-Doctor became available. 8)

dodecahedron wrote:my current stock of these: 180.

I have ca. 90. This is rather disturbing. :o

One thing to look at is the batch and/or serial number of the CD's. I had a 10 pack of Verbatim DataLife (CMC) with 2 lots in the package. This is normal. what was not normal was the drastic quality difference. I wrote about it quite a bit- the summary is here.

I've tried just one CD with a DVD burner (the SOHW 1213S is problematic - not a good reference) and it was one of these Verbatim Pastell's. The following scan (sxcanned @max with my CD-Burner) shows that it's useable, but not great- sort of like your NEC burn, Halc.

Image

For comparison, from the same batch burned and scanned with my LTR 48246S (typical for this burner):

Image

Halc- have you actually had better results with these Verbatim Pastell's on the NEC or Plextor?

Somewhat off-topic: here is how my SOHW 1213S reads it's own disc. Note the C2 spikes. I don't think this scan says anything meaningful. :roll:

Image


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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:26 pm

correct me if i'm wrong, guys, but at the bad scans are of CDs burned on the DVD burners, no?
how about burned on CDRW burners?
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Postby Halc on Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:34 pm

Yes, they are burned on DVD burners, except for the Mitsumi, which is a CDRW burner (and produced horrible results on that TY disc).

I haven't had enough time to burn them on a wide variety cdrw burners.

Also, as I said, I also get very good burns on some of the exact same batch Verbatim/TY discs, but some are just bad.

That is, the results are not consistent.
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:31 pm

how very distressing.
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Postby Halc on Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:01 pm

I haven't tested all the Nec ND2510 and Plextor PX-712 burns of my Pastels, but both can do well on those, when the burns don't go haywire (like above). So, can't comment fully on that yet.

Also, I agree that C1/C2 scanning with LiteOn dvd burners is problematic. See this scan I made:

Image


That's zero c1/c2!

Honestly, I don't think that is possible.

The drive must see and correct some errors. Clearly it is not reporting all the errors to kProbe.

As it stands, I wouldn't use LiteOn dvd burners to scan compact discs for errors at this point.
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Postby Halc on Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:03 pm

In hindsight, I think I should only be worried about that Mitsumi CW7503 burn.

While the Nec and Plextor burns were not what I was expecting, I think they're still very usable burns.

I've been just brainwashed to look at the absolute levels and was expecting below 1 averages for C1 and no spikes :)

In terms of compatibility, both discs play without problems in all of my readers and the amount of errors the drive sees is still very much within specifications.
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Postby Harrier on Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:22 pm

Halc, can you upload a Kprobe scan of these Pastels written and scaned on the LTR52327S?

dodecahedron, did you buy the exact alleged CD-Rs?
If so, how has your experience been with these 'till now (what burner are you writing with?) and where did you get them from (as you know from my other posts i have intentions of buying these).
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:41 pm

LOL i was thinking of reviving this topic myself!

Halc, can you say what you think of this media? did it turn out to be a drive issue after all or is this media (Verbatim DataLife Pastel) iffy ?

@Harrier:
i have a shitload of this media stocked, but haven't used any of it yet :o
they are the same as those sold in Office Depot - 100 spindles of Made in Japan Pastel Verbatim DataLife.
i also have some of them in boxes of 20 slim jewel cases.

see my post here:
Last edited by dodecahedron on Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Harrier on Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:13 pm

Okay, i'm not sure right here, dodecahedron:
What CD-Rs do Office Depot sell and what branddo you have:
Verbatim Pastel DL or DLP?
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:28 pm

OK i'll clarify:
my stock consists of a lot of Verbatim DataLife Pastels made by Taiyo Yuden, Made in Japan, the same kind that you see sold @ Office Deopt. a few 100 spindles (2 or 3) and a few boxes of these discs in 20 jewel cases (bought in Dyonon at Tel Aviv Univ).
so far i haven't used any of these myself.

i have some older TY media:
24x TDKs 650MB and 24x Sony 700MB. these are what i've been using lately.
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Postby MediumRare on Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:48 am

I've used some more of these in the meantime. Here's an excerpt of the information I've gathered (I keep track in an Access database 8)):

Burned with DVD burner SOHW-1213S, mostly crossflashed to 1633S (and Memorex and Sony). Note that all burns were really at 32x PCAV, regardless of the *setting:
Code: Select all
No.     Spd*    Fware   C1max   C1mean  Remarks
347     40      TS08     42      3.67   yellow, DVD
351     40      BS0C     36      1.09   yellow, DVD as 1633s. only 32x!!!
357     48      BS0G    102      5.79   +12x read xfl  32PCAV
358     48      BS0G    560     33.54   +xfll 32PCAV
368     48      BS0K     42      3.67   Green, DVD 32 PCAV
359     48      BWSE     33      1.53   +xfll 32PCAV
350     40      BY01      9      0.32   yellow, DVD as Sony

Burned with CD burner LTR-48246S
Code: Select all
No.     Spd     Fware   C1max   C1mean  Remarks
317     48      SS0E      6      0.16   Nero 6.3, Yellow
323     48      SS0E     10      0.41   Nero 6.3.0.3,yellow
324     40      SS0B      7      0.26   cue+text, blue
329     40      SS0E      7      0.31   Nero 6.3, blue
348     40      SS0E     12      0.3    yellow
352     40      SS0E      7      0.15   yellow, cue + text
364     40      SS0E     17      2.10   
373     48      SS0E      6      0.21   22 min
380     32      SS0E      9      0.20   Green
382     40      SS0E     34      1.77   green, cue + text
386     48      SS0E      9      0.33   green, cue + text

No C2's in any case
On the whole, the results on the CD burner results have been good and the DVD results so-so, with exceptions in both cases.

However, the older 32x pastels (same ATIP) that I have mostly performed better :o.

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Postby Harrier on Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:44 am

That's great information, MediumRare.
Though i'd love to see some 52327S action there as well (Halc).
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:48 pm

bump!
Halc, any news on this issue ?
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