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Roxio ECDC 5.3.2 & LG GCE-8240B,TAO problems...........

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Roxio ECDC 5.3.2 & LG GCE-8240B,TAO problems...........

Postby pranav81 on Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:57 am

I have Roxio ECDC 5.3.2 Platinum,the latest patch that Roxio has put up on it's patch.I am facing problems burning Audio CD's in TAO mode.
When I create a project and click the burn button,I select TAO & Finalize the CD for the CD to be played in Audio CD Player.When I click start recording....then what happens is that the burn process starts normally,but when the burning approaches the end of the Track it becomes very low.It drpos from 24X to 1X for the last 3 to 4 Mb's.
This problem does not occur when I burn in DAO.But for 2 seconds of pause to be inserted I must use the TAO method.
I have no problems when burning data CD's.
Waiting for some posts......
Thanks in advance..........
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Postby Inertia on Sun Dec 15, 2002 8:45 pm

Track at once is an inferior recording method compared to disk at once.

There isn't much point in using TAO unless you are recording directly to the CDR over an extended period of time, and want to keep the disc open until the last track is recorded.

Most people complain about the 2 second gap that TAO forces in the recording. Yours is the first post that I have seen that considers this to be a benefit. If you record adjacent tracks that flow together, TAO will interrupt the music flow with a 2 second gap which is very annoying.

If you are creating a compilation project from different sources, it is still advisable to record in DAO for best overall quality. Most music tracks with separate songs have 2 seconds of silence between tracks as a default to separate the songs. DAO will copy this default with no change. If for some reason you want to add a silence between tracks, you don't have to record in TAO to do this. Follow this procedure:

Make the layout for the entire recording in the compilation window, even if from different sources. Silence between tracks can be adjusted by highlighting either a single track or all tracks and right clicking on Transition Effects. This dialog will allow you to change the default 00:00 second DAO silence between tracks to your choice of silence (gap) time.

Go to File | Create CD Hard Disc Image and save a hard disc image of the compilation. Then use Record CD from CD Image to burn the disc using DAO mode. :)
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:40 am

Inertia wrote:Go to File | Create CD Hard Disc Image and save a hard disc image of the compilation. Then use Record CD from CD Image to burn the disc using DAO mode. :)

why, Inertia? can't you just burn the compilation directly (without saving an image first) in DAO mode?
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Postby Inertia on Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:05 am

A compilation can be burned in DAO if it can be accessed in real time without any interruptions or delay due to different input sources. A compilation, by definition implies an assortment of possibly unrelated material. A simple copy of a CD is just that, and it is not regarded as a compilation.

In other words, if the compilation is coming partially from a MP3, a WAV file, a CD or two (or three), it may be problematical to keep the laser burning away without interruption. With the advent of buffer underrun protection, this gives some protection against interruptions in recording. However, it is not intended to be a means to suspend a burn while discs are changed, or different formats are processed, etc..

A DAO burn can be done without problem (I have done it) with two different source CD's if two readers are available. In the case of a complicated compilation it is best to not have any concerns about interruptions. This is easily handled if the compilation is recorded first to the hard drive, which allows it to be burned in DAO mode in real time without interruptions. :)
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Postby cfitz on Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:30 am

Ah, Inertia, ever the conservative... :wink: Your analysis is good, but in practice I've never run into any problems with just burning DAO directly from a compilation. With buffer underrun protection and the caching that burning software does for small or slow to access files (much the same effect as creating the image first), I don't think it is an issue anymore. You can safely burn away without first making a complete image on the hard drive. Of course, there is nothing wrong with creating the image first, and you are right that it gives you the most assurance of avoiding activation of buffer underrun prevention schemes as a result of burning interruptions.

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Postby Inertia on Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:05 am

Buffer underrun protection is useful for preventing inadvertant buffer underruns, but I would not choose to use it as a method to purposely suspend a burn with a technology that produces inaudible "gaps" as most BU technologies still do. In other words, I accept it when it happens, but I would try to avoid it when possible.

DAO burning may not be an issue with buffer underrun protection if you don't mind stopping a burn while changing CD's. It is a major issue for the many people who are still using older burners without buffer underrun protection. Caching definitely helps but as burning speed increases it won't prevent problems without buffer underrun protection. Caching has been around much longer than buffer underrun protection, and it hasn't been reliable for preventing coasters.

With multisource complicated source material, although a DAO burn should complete due to buffer underrun protection, I would still record to hard drive first. Given the choice of an interrupted burn with artifacts (although inaudible) or a burn without interruption or artifacts I would choose the latter.

BTW, my regular and normal mode of burning is on the fly. I am not an advocate of ripping to hard drive first, except in what I consider extreme circumstances.
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Postby cfitz on Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:31 am

Inertia wrote:Buffer underrun protection is useful for preventing inadvertant buffer underruns, but I would not choose to use it as a method to purposely suspend a burn with a technology that produces inaudible "gaps" as most BU technologies still do. In other words, I accept it when it happens, but I would try to avoid it when possible.
<snip>
Given the choice of an interrupted burn with artifacts (although inaudible) or a burn without interruption or artifacts I would choose the latter.

Oh, I agree. In fact, I went so far as to buy a Yamaha CRW3200EZ because it used P-CAV technology when most of its peers were using Z-CLV, and I wanted to avoid links on general principle. But I really feel that I was being overly paranoid, and recognize that P-CAV and CAV have their own potential issues (we won't get into that here :wink: ). There are millions of Z-CLV drives out there producing links as a normal part of their operation without causing any problems at all. I think the only time it might really be a concern is when producing a master for pressed CD duplication, and I'm not even sure about that.

Inertia wrote:DAO burning may not be an issue with buffer underrun protection if you don't mind stopping a burn while changing CD's. It is a major issue for the many people who are still using older burners without buffer underrun protection. Caching definitely helps but as burning speed increases it won't prevent problems without buffer underrun protection. Caching has been around much longer than buffer underrun protection, and it hasn't been reliable for preventing coasters.

I sure know caching predates buffer underrun prevention. :) I burned without a net for years using a Memorex 1622, relying on caching only since the drive had no buffer underrun protection. I never made a coaster, even though I burned all my compilations directly from their constituent files and the system was only a 400 MHz Pentium II. Of course, the drive only wrote at 2x, so keeping the pipe full probably wasn't such a challenge even for that old system... :wink:

If all the files are already on the hard drive and none need to be converted, caching is sufficient to prevent buffer underruns even if the burner doesn't have buffer underrun protection, at least in my experience. When burning more complicated compilations that require file conversions or source material from CD-ROM, then I would agree with you that making an image on the hard drive first is advisable for those whose burners don't have buffer underrun protection.

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Thanks a lot guys......!!!!

Postby pranav81 on Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:34 pm

Thanks a lot guys for the posts.I still dont understand that why does the writer write slowly at the end of the track???I tried reinstalling ECDC and have upgraded it to latest version.
I will use the DAO method in future as described by you.
Thanks a lot for the help.....
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Postby Inertia on Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:40 pm

One on the other differences between TAO and DAO is the order in which the TOC (table of contents) is written.

When a disc is written in DAO, the entire compilation is already known and defined. Because the contents of the disc to be burned are already known, the TOC is written first before the data is burned to the disc.

TAO on the other hand, allows tracks to be added incrementally. Since the contents of the final disc may not be known until the last track is added and the disc finalized, the TOC on a TAO disc is written at the conclusion of the burning process.

Perhaps the perceived slowdown of your writer at the very end of a burn with TAO is the writing of the TOC, which may default to a slower speed. Writing the TOC is a relatively brief process and would be combined with writing the disc lead-out, probably taking no more than 30 seconds or so. When a person compares the burning of a DAO burn with one in TAO, this writing ot the TOC at the end of a TAO burn may seem like a slowdown in the burn. :)
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:43 pm

thanks, Inertia and cfitz, for your answers and discussion.

Inertia wrote:Go to File | Create CD Hard Disc Image and save a hard disc image of the compilation. Then use Record CD from CD Image to burn the disc using DAO mode. :)

Inertia, i can't seen to find this option in th File menu. i created an Audio compilation, the options under the File menu are: Write CD... (this is the regular burn window); Burn Image...; Burn HFS Partition...; CD Copy...; Burn HD Backup...
am i missing something? where do i find the option to burn to compilation to the hard drive as an image?

Ooops...i'm using Nero, not ECDC.
OK, so how do i do this under Nero?
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Postby Inertia on Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:41 am

dodecahedron,

Unlike Easy CD Creator, Nero can't burn an audio compilation in DAO unless the tracks are first cached to the hard drive.

In the Nero Audio CD | CDA Options, choose Tempfile strategy.

In Burn, check Write (unless you want to simulate first) and Finalize CD. Set the Write Method as Disk-At-Once.

Drag the files or tracks from whatever source to the compilation window where they will be automatically extracted to the hard drive.

Burn away and you will have a DAO compilation. ;)

BTW, you can also add CD Text in this mode by going to Audio CD and checking Write CD Text on CD. If you are interested in this, you can follow my instructions in This Thread.
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:12 am

ok, thanks Inertia.

so if i understand you correctly, the ONLY way to burn a DAO audio compilation in Nero is like what you suggested to pranav81 "File | Create CD Hard Disc Image" for ECDC, yes?
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Postby Inertia on Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:21 am

Yes, the terminology and the menu choices are a little different, but Nero can't burn an audio compilation in DAO unless the source tracks are first cached to the hard drive. Nero should be set up as indicated in my prior post for DAO audio compilation burning.

Writing to hard drive for a DAO compilation is an option in Easy CD Creator, but is a requirement in Nero.
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:38 am

Inertia wrote:In the Nero Audio CD | CDA Options, choose Tempfile strategy.

Nero shows that the default strategy is Diskspace strategy.
why did you recomment Tempfile strategy?
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Postby Inertia on Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:59 am

From the Nero help:

Diskspace strategy: A cda file is treated as tempfile, if there is enough diskspace in the Nero cache path of the harddisk. Otherwise track references are used.

Track references don't require harddisk space and are read only at burn time. They can be read only from CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drives, but not from CD recorders. This representation of cda files cannot be written in disc at once mode.

Temporary track files are stored as files on harddisk. They can be written in disc at once mode, but require harddisk space in the Nero cache path. This cda representation can be read both from CD recorders and CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drives.

Tempfile strategy: Each cda file is stored as temporary track file on harddisk. :)
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Thanks a lot guys......!!!!

Postby pranav81 on Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:39 pm

Thanks a lot guys for the responses that you have posted here on this topic.I have learnt quite a bit from the posts & now I will burn each and every CD error free,thanks to you all.....
Thanks a lot,
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:15 pm

Inertia wrote:From the Nero help:

Diskspace strategy: A cda file is treated as tempfile, if there is enough diskspace in the Nero cache path of the harddisk. Otherwise track references are used.

Track references don't require harddisk space and are read only at burn time. They can be read only from CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drives, but not from CD recorders. This representation of cda files cannot be written in disc at once mode.

Temporary track files are stored as files on harddisk. They can be written in disc at once mode, but require harddisk space in the Nero cache path. This cda representation can be read both from CD recorders and CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drives.

Tempfile strategy: Each cda file is stored as temporary track file on harddisk. :)

yes, i seem to recall having read that before.
so i gather that you recommend the Tempfile strategy.
however, strangely, Nero appears to let me create a compilation with Diskspace (default) strategy and DAO!

also strange that track references can be read from CD/DVD-ROM but not a CDRW ???

something not clear - if i drage a .mp3 file into an Audio compilation, does this mean that if i use the Diskspace strategy or the Track Reference (?) strategy, will the decoding take place before the burn or during the burn? whereas i presume if i use tempfile strategy the decoding will take place before the burn...
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Postby Inertia on Tue Dec 17, 2002 6:25 pm

The default Diskspace strategy uses the DAO capable Tempfile strategy if there is adequate hard drive cache space for the burn. Otherwise it will switch to the Track Reference strategy which doesn't require hard drive space and burn in TAO (DAO is not supported in Track Reference). If adequate disc cache space is not available and Diskspace strategy is used, what was intended to be a DAO burn may turn out unexpectedly to be done in TAO.

I recommend the Tempfile strategy because it works only with temporary track files. Temporary track files cached to hard disc are required for reading CDA audio files to be burned in DAO with Nero. If this mode is chosen without adequate hard drive cache space, the burn will not be able to start. Thus there will be no accidental TAO burns instead of the desired DAO as might happen with the default Diskspace strategy.

All of the strategies that we have been discussing are CDA file strategies. That is, they only apply to reading CDA audio files from a CD reader. None of these strategies apply to files already on the hard drive.
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:14 pm

what?
so if i choose DAO and leave the default Diskspace strategy, the burn may actually be TAO ???? wow!
that's an important 'heads up!' ... thanks! (tricky tricky tricky... :-? )
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Thaks a lot guys....

Postby pranav81 on Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:21 am

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:10 pm Post subject: Learning a lot....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well guys......
I tried burning the music compilation image to the HDD.Then I opened it using ECDC and then tried to wrie that.this time it was written perfectly in TAO finalize CD,but this time it was from the HDD image.It was writted in about 4 minutes,76 minutes of audio.
I then again tried directly to burn the same compilation to the CD using the TAO and finalize CD instead of the HDD image.BUT i faced the same problem at the end of each track.The writer only writes at the speed of 12-13 kbs at the end of each track.This time it took whopping 43 minutes to complete the CD.
I just posted this to tell you guys the new development.I will now write the CD's in DAO,but this was just a type of test that I was taking.
Anyways,thanks a lot for the posts....
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