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C't test results. burners.

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:12 pm

Wow MediumRare!!! Nicely done :D

It looks like the OPTODISCR008 didn't do as bad as most people would expect. One thing is for sure, they've started fixing their production problems! (and the newer batches are even better so far :D )

If the Philips1645 is based on the BenQ DW1640, then I can deffinately say that CMCMAGE01 8x DVD+Rs are really REALLY good on it. In fact, the results are some of the best I've ever seen. But the grade of the disc comes into it as well, since I also have some low grade CMCMAGE01 media that fails to burn (even though it's held back at 4x by WOPC!!).

I guess one important thing to remember at this point is that 2 discs with the same MID code, made by the same factory, are not neccissarily even close to the same quality.
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby MediumRare on Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:22 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:If the Philips1645 is based on the BenQ DW1640

Actually it's based on the BenQ 1620Pro. The Philips nos. were always higher. I don't think their version of the BenQ 1640 is out yet.
dolphinius_rex wrote:I guess one important thing to remember at this point is that 2 discs with the same MID code, made by the same factory, are not neccissarily even close to the same quality.

That is so true. I always have to think about those dreadful CMC-made Verbatim DataLife CDR's. :evil:

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Postby Halc on Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:36 am

Thanks for the excellent post!

I really appreciate you doing this, especially the methodology and explanation parts, which I have hard time understanding with my dictionary-flipping German :)

The article (or three articles) are 19 pages in total, so I also recommend everybody serious about media quality to get this article.


Now, onto the results:

The TDK media is indeed very interesting. I wonder who really makes it?

I'm a little surprised by the +R 8x TY results though. I've burned this with five burners and scanned with seven readers (5x7=35 tests for this media alone!). Error levels, scan speeds and compatibility is always the best I have found.

Granted I have not tested the TDK -R 8x in question, but T02 Plextor 8x is the best I've been able to find. Nor have I tested every media out there. However, it does consistently perform better than any other quality media I've tried.

As such, I have hard time agreeing fully with c't on that write quality / compatibility finding.

Also, CMC MAG AE1 is not nearly as compatible with burners as Prodisc F01 (in my own large scanning testing). It's a pity this wasn't in the c't roundup, as it's quite common a media in EU market as well.

Also, DW1640 burns CMC MAG AE1 really quite ok. Better than anything else out there (that I've tried). Scans are good, compatibility very good across seven drives.

I really wish my German was better as there is still too much room for misunderstanding for me in the way I interpret the article and test methodologies.

Also, I'm happy they have the compatibility alongside with writing quality.

The way I've understood it write quality (schreibqualität) is based mostly on their "pro level" scan results whereas compatiblity is based on testing with consumer drives. Am I right?

It would be interesting to know in more detail how they rank the write quality / compatibility.

best regards,
halc

PS Mediumrare, I hope you get well soon! Remember to exercise that back, it's the only one you've got :)
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Postby MediumRare on Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:25 am

Halc wrote:I really appreciate you doing this, especially the methodology and explanation parts, which I have hard time understanding with my dictionary-flipping German :)

Thanks for the flowers. :D As a physicist, I consider it important how these numbers are reached. That's why I always try to describe the methodology- otherwise we might just as well skip the information.

Halc wrote:The TDK media is indeed very interesting. I wonder who really makes it?

It does come close to the "optimal media", doesn't it? There's a very lively discussion on that in another thread.

Halc wrote:I'm a little surprised by the +R 8x TY results though.
...
As such, I have hard time agreeing fully with c't on that write quality / compatibility finding.

I think you have to remember that c't makes the test burns at the highest speed a drive allows. And if you look at the detailed results (which I didn't post- too much info) almost all the drives wrote the TY at speeds > 8x (rated):
- Philips: 16x (with POF's and a quality index of -628 :evil:)
- NEC and Plextor: 14x, Pioneer and LG: 12x, LiteOn: 8x
So the poor results at these high speed (esp. Philips and Pioneer) sort of spoil these ratings.

It's open to discussion if this "max. speed allowed" strategy or "rated speed" is best, but hey- if the drive manufacturers allow it, people will use it, so it's probably realistic.

Halc wrote:I really wish my German was better as there is still too much room for misunderstanding for me in the way I interpret the article and test methodologies.

Drop me a line and I'll do my best to help. Did you have a look at the discussion on 16x media?

Halc wrote:The way I've understood it write quality (schreibqualität) is based mostly on their "pro level" scan results whereas compatiblity is based on testing with consumer drives. Am I right?

Yes, as far as I can tell, this is the case (fine print on p.99), if you consider the Almedio AEC-1000 to be a "consumer drive".

Halc wrote:PS Mediumrare, I hope you get well soon! Remember to exercise that back, it's the only one you've got :)

Thanks for the kind wishes. :D My wife has to vacate her studio by the end of the month :( and I strained my back over the weekend while moving some unwieldly objects. I'll be back to work tomorrow.

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Postby Halc on Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:02 pm

Ah, I missed the burn speeds on TY. I was so overjoyed by the 19 pages that I skimmed half of them :)

Well, that explains it.

I'm not a fan of overspeeding, although it has it's uses (limited).

I think however their test methodology hammers down unfairly on the media, when it's in fact the drives that overspeed the burns over the maximum rated burn speeds.

But if people just burn at the speed the drives suggest (which must be the reasoning behind c't reviewer's thinking) then it's a reasonable way to set burn speeds.

However, it's still more a measure of the drive you choose than the disc itself.

At 8x TY TT02 is just superior to anything I'v seen myself, imho (when factoring in a large enough a pool of burners).

I'll be going through the article with a comb myself, when I have time later this week :)

regards,
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Postby Scour on Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:10 pm

Hello!

I missed a few media like Ritek R03, Prodisc F01,...

In Germany 16x TY-media isn´t avaible in the moment, I hope that c´t will make a new test when that media arrived.

Question: When I look at the results for Verbatim DVD-R 8x and 16x, can I say that the 8x is the much better media?
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Postby RJW on Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:50 pm

Scour wrote:Hello!

I missed a few media like Ritek R03, Prodisc F01,...

In Germany 16x TY-media isn´t avaible in the moment, I hope that c´t will make a new test when that media arrived.

Question: When I look at the results for Verbatim DVD-R 8x and 16x, can I say that the 8x is the much better media?

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion. First 16x is 16x media not 8x. (DUH)
Second on most the end judgement are same however except longlivety.
Now I know on the error levels the DVD-R 8x scores nicer however you can't compare 8x and 16x burns. 16x is much more problematic like I said befor.
Now about the longlivety expect. Verbatim/Mitsubishi seems to have some batch variation here. (Check real life results of longlivety freak. ) And also take into account that the 16x disc was allready is a more worse position.

Prodisc F01 is only good availlable in germanny through E-net brands it seems. Yeah you can say intenso however there version of intenso was from a different manufacturer so you can't go to multiple stores and hope that you just find another batch of a different manufacturer. If you notice C't tested no E-net brands. That Ritek R03 is missing is more rare I agree because that media should have been available.
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Postby RJW on Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:56 pm

Halc wrote:
I'm not a fan of overspeeding, although it has it's uses (limited).

I think however their test methodology hammers down unfairly on the media, when it's in fact the drives that overspeed the burns over the maximum rated burn speeds.

But if people just burn at the speed the drives suggest (which must be the reasoning behind c't reviewer's thinking) then it's a reasonable way to set burn speeds.

However, it's still more a measure of the drive you choose than the disc itself.

C't has allready stated earlier they test at the max speed the drive allowes if it doesn't allow or doesn't throttle back. Shame but then it's support was overrated. Changeing that step for the specific media test would make results not comparable with the burner tests. However C't also states a recommended speed at which the media still is fine.

Let me say most users in computer stores I encounter can be put down in 2 groups.
1 Who burns as slow as possible. Else my video's skip - Ehh some media isn't optimized for 1x and 2x and will give much worse results as 4x !
2 Who burns at MAX this is by far the bigest group you should see how manny people say my disc's burns at 16x and sacrificeing quality a long.
(See also a large population at cdfreaks.)
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Postby Scour on Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:54 pm

RJW wrote:I wouldn't jump to the conclusion. First 16x is 16x media not 8x. (DUH)
Second on most the end judgement are same however except longlivety.
Now I know on the error levels the DVD-R 8x scores nicer however you can't compare 8x and 16x burns. 16x is much more problematic like I said befor.
Now about the longlivety expect. Verbatim/Mitsubishi seems to have some batch variation here. (Check real life results of longlivety freak. ) And also take into account that the 16x disc was allready is a more worse position.


I don´t care about the spedd, but the stability. In that case seems 8x DVD-R from Verbatim very good, because the error-rate is after the torture better than with other media before torture
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Postby Francksoy on Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:37 am

Hi all :)

Arrived here by following a link at CDFreaks.

I HAD to subscribe so to thank MediumRare for this transcription of the C't study. :D =D>

Cheers from Belgium,

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Postby MediumRare on Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:50 pm

Hi Franck,
thanks for the flowers. :D

Stick around here a bit- it's a friendly place with knowledgeable members.

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Postby Francksoy on Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:09 pm

"Stick around here a bit- it's a friendly place with knowledgeable members."

Thanks, I think I'll do stick around - I've read around and found a lot of very interesting posts. Actually I noticed that the user who posted the link at CDFreaks is a member here... Hi Scour ;)
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Postby Scour on Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:18 pm

Francksoy wrote:Actually I noticed that the user who posted the link at CDFreaks is a member here... Hi Scour ;)


Hi Francksoy ;)
Benq DW 1640 and 1650 , Plextor PX-755, Pioneer BDR-208 and 209D, LG GH24NSC0, LG BH16NS40 and 16NS55, Liteon ihas 124F and 324F, Pioneer DVR-215 and S21, Samsung SH-224DB and 224GB, and some more

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Postby frank1 on Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:46 am

First of all thanks a lot to "MediumRare" for posting here the summaries of the DVD tests publishebd by c't magazine.
After reading your post my interest in the media TTH01 from TDK that I was already using grew up again ...



In the meantime somebody reported (on the website Gravure News)
that after buying a spindle of 50 DVD-R 8x with the label TDK, here at nierle.com:
http://www.nierle3.com/s01.php?sid=PG00 ... a&bnr=2302
they sowed up under DVD Identifier (in a Pioneer 107D drive FW 1.21)
to have the MID code TTH01 and not TTG02 as advertised by nierle.
I posted that in detail here:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 2&start=47


So I like to know the opinion of all of you:
- Do you have any idea which label c't magazine used to run their tests published in their issue 14/2005, the test that you summerized here above ...
- Which label(s) do you consider as being "GENUINE" TTH01 ??

In one word:
Is nierle.com selling "true" TTH01 under this "traditionnal TDK blue looking" label DVD-R 8x in these 50 sp spindles ???
Which is the exact reason why some TDK DVD-R 8x discs show sometimes
a changing media code in Japan ??


--------------------------------------------
Personaly I have only burned so far (and with great success)
these "grey looking" TDK ScratchProof labels
showing up in all my drives (including a NEC 3500 and a Pioneer 107D)
as TTH01:
Image

which are sold in jewel cases under the name TDK DVD-R 8x "ScratchProof"
Item code: DVD-R47SPEC (printed at the back of the jewel case)
Image
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Postby Scour on Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:20 am

Hello!

c´t-magazine don´t wrote more details, so I don´t know where the media come from.

I wrote a mail to c´t and ask they about the "Made in...", but I don´t have a answer yet.
Benq DW 1640 and 1650 , Plextor PX-755, Pioneer BDR-208 and 209D, LG GH24NSC0, LG BH16NS40 and 16NS55, Liteon ihas 124F and 324F, Pioneer DVR-215 and S21, Samsung SH-224DB and 224GB, and some more

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Postby RJW on Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:16 am

Well all the newer TDK disc's I've seen arround these days do no longer state the place of manufactureing. So C't might not know it. I suggest contacting TDK.
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Postby Scour on Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:40 pm

Hello!

In the next c´t from 19.9. a dvd-writer-review follows:

BenQ DW 1640 fw. BSLB
Plextor 740 fw. 1.01
LiteOn SOHW-1693S fw. KS0A
LG GSA-4167B fw. DL10
Pioneer DVR-110D fw. 1.08
Samsung AH-W162C fw. TS06
Toshiba SD-R5472 fw. TU02

Tested with those media:

dvd+r (16x)
Sony (SONY D21)
Verbatim (MCC 004)

dvd-r (16x)
Sony (SONY16D1)
Verbatim (MCC 03RG20)
Taiyo Yuden (TYG03)

dvd+rw (8x)
Ricoh (RICOHJPN W21)

dvd-rw (6x)
Verbatim (MKM 01RW6X01)

dvd+r dl (2,4x)
Verbatim (MKM 001)

dvd-r dl (4x)
Verbatim (MKM 01RD30)

Maybe MediumRare already work on it ;) ?

Scource: http://tsagod.kostenloses-forum.tk/tsag ... ic340.html
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Postby Bhairav on Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:40 am

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:21 am

According the the posted details on CDFreaks, the BenQ DW1640 blew away the competition in many areas. I don't really believe that the results between DVD+RDL on the DW1640 and the PX-740 are very different, but probably burning the media at 8x (it's rated at 2.4x remember!) produces much higher variations then if it's burned at 6x or slower.

Heck, Verbatim THEMSELVES told me the media should *NOT* be burned at 8x! :o

As for DVD-RWs, they were using 8x DVD+RWs and 6x DVD-RWs for their testing... and I have to admit the results I saw in my own tests were not stunning... but it's a VERY new technology, and I don't think many (if any) drives have really gotten it working very well.

On the whole, it's nice to see that my own results with the DW1640 (and my assumptions about the Pioneer DVR-110D) are pretty close to what professional test equipment have shown.
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Postby RJW on Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:23 am

That's easy incase of Benq/Philips real good burns will cause much more problems on different testing systems and for that reason the end conclusions will be much more close.

Pioneer I won't assume anything because of there support performance is to much based on what media you will use.
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Postby MediumRare on Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:49 am

Scour wrote:Maybe MediumRare already work on it ;) ?

Mindreader? 8)

As scour pointed out, c't has another DVD-Burner and media test in their latest issue 20/2005 on sale in Europe on Monday. We had company this weekend, so I couldn't spend as much time reading c't as I'd like. Furthermore, there's a federal election in Germany today, and (although I can't vote) I'm very much interested in the results, so I'll get this done before the polls close. :wink:

Incidentally, this issue of c't has some more goodies, e.g. a full version of VMWare 4.5.2 (1 year license). So if you can get it, it's well worth purchasing, not only for the DVD tests.

Media
The 16x DVD-R media from TY and the rewritables 6x DVD-RW from Verbatim (MCC) and 8x DVD+RW from Ricoh are new. Their physical properties were analyzed by Audiodev from unburnt discs. The c't weighted mechanical quality index is based on these results. They're routinely doing the climatic stability tests with new media now, so I'll add these and general writing quality information to the summary. The rest of the information in the media test isn't available. They've also discontinued details on the Push-Pull-signal (PPb) and deviations.

Code: Select all
                               DVD-R 16x     DVD-RW 6x      DVD+RW 8x
                     Bound     Taiyo Yuden   Verbatim       Ricoh   
                               TYG03         MKM 01RW6X01   RICOHJPN W21(001)
AxialN  [mu]         0.2        0.257          0.150          0.220   
RadialN [nm]         25        18.9           33.0           16.0     
RRO [mu]             70        20.9           43.8           46.3     
Mech. Index/ Grade             84 / ++         74 / +         69 / + 
Writing quality                 0              --              -
Clim. Stability                ++              ++              ++

The rewritables do very well in the stability tests because the phase change material used is more robust than the organic dyes used in write-once media. In fact, the error rates for the Ricoh discs decreased after the heat and humidity treatment.
The RW's have excellent physical properties so that the writing problems (esp. Verbatim -RW) should decrease with better firmware.

The TY media is excellent, where supported. New firmware should help the other drives (see table below). Unfortunately, this media is difficult to find at present.

Drives
As usual, I'll tabulate the c't quality index along with the grade (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the grade).

The first table contains model and firmware and the c't grade for various categories. The quality and speed ratings for DVDs are now combined in a single grade.

Code: Select all
                       DVD Burns      Reading      Noise
Model +  Firmware     R / RW / DL     CD / DVD     CD/VideoDVD

BenQ        BSLB      + /  - / 0       + / ++      0 / +
DW1640 Solidburn

Plextor     1.01      0 /  - / +       + / ++      0 / +
PX-740A

LiteOn      KS0A      - /  - / +      ++ / 0      -- / 0
SOHW-1693S

LG          DL10      - / -- / +       + / +       0 / 0
GSA-4167B

Pioneer     1.08      - / -- / 0       + / ++      0 / +
DVR-110D

Samsung     TS06      0 /  - / 0       0 / 0       + / -
SH-W162C

Toshiba     TU02      - /  - / 0       0 / 0       + / 0
SD-R5472

The next tables contains the actual and recommended burning speed for these drives and selected media. The recommended speed is based on details of the scans. The second line shows the c't quality index and grade (# means POFs occurred).

First: RW and DL Media

Code: Select all
             DVD+RW 8x    DVD-RW 6x      DVD+R DL      DVD-R DL   
             Ricoh        Verbatim       MCC (Verb.)   MCC (Verb.)
       RICOHJPN W21(001)  MKM 01RW6X01   MKM001        MKM 01RD30 
Model
BenQ           8 / 8        6 / 4         8 / 4          4 / 4
DW1640        30 / 0     -282 / --#      -9 / --        65 / +

Plextor        8 / 8        6 / 4         8 / 6          4 / 4
PX-740A       28 / 0     -204 / --#      37 / 0         66 / +

LiteOn         8 / 8        6 / 4         4 / 2.4        4 / 4
SOHW-1693S    28 / 0      -41 / --#      35 / 0         64 / +

LG             8 / NO       6 / 4         6 / 6          4 / 4
GSA-4167B     -8 / --    -302 / --#      52 / +         73 / +

Pioneer      3.4 / 4        6 / 6         8 / 6          8 / 8
DVR-110D     -21 / --    -122 / --#      36 / 0         51 / +

Samsung        8 / 4        6 / 4         6 / 6          4 / 4
SH-W162C      10 / -      -80 / --#      49 / 0         46 / 0

Toshiba        8 / 4        6 / 4         6 / 4          4 / 4
SD-R5472      32 / 0      -30 / --     -224 / --#       56 / +

Next: 16x +R and -R Media

Code: Select all
             DVD+R 16x    DVD-R 16x    DVD+R 16x      DVD-R 16x    DVD-R 16x     
             Verbatim     Verbatim     Sony           Sony         Taiyo Yuden   
             MCC 004      MCC 03RG20   SONY D21(000)  SONY16D1     TYG03
Model
BenQ          16 / 16      16 / 16       16 / 12        16 / 16      16 / 16
DW1640        63 / +       68 / +        38 / 0         80 / ++      82 / ++

Plextor       16 / 12      16 / 16       16 / 12        16 / 12      16 / 16
PX-740A       39 / 0       64 / +      -122 / --#       35 / 0       55 / +

LiteOn        16 / 12      16 / 12       16 / 12        16 / 12      16 / 16
SOHW-1693S   -23 / --      -3 / --     -235 / --#       34 / 0       52 / +

LG            16 / 8       16 / 8        16 / 8         16 / 8       16 / 8
GSA-4167B     15 / -      -37 / --       10 / -        -21 / --      46 / 0

Pioneer       16 / 12      16 / 4        16 / 12        16 / 16      16 / 12
DVR-110D    -329 / --#   -136 / --#    -236 / --#       60 / +     -209 / --#

Samsung       16 / 16      16 / 12       16 / 12        16 / 16      16 / 16
SH-W162C      53 / +      -28 / --       54 / +         60 / +       47 / 0

Toshiba       16 / 12      16 / 12       16 / 16        16 / 16      16 / 8
SD-R5472    -267 / --#    -60 / --       58 / +         46 / 0      -25 / --


Some remarks:
  • In some cases, the RW's should be completely written once or twice before use (burn-in effect)
  • BenQ is clearly best. Recommendation: use Solidburn, do not overspeed.
  • LiteOn writes a bit too fast. Has the best CD reading properties (e.g. all copy protected audio CDs).
  • Pioneer needs work on firmware. The new 1.17 fw will be tested together with the DVD-RAM capable 110 later.
  • LG is the fastest burner, but also needs better fw. At present 8x is OK. The laser power used for the Ricoh +RW appears to be too high and may detroy the recording layer. :o The GSA-4168B adds Lightscribe, but is the same otherwise.
  • Samsumg and Toshiba have finally produced a drive together. Toshiba's fw needs work, Samsung has improved greatly from its first effort (TS-H552).
  • c't finds that the poorer results for the plus media are related to higher jitter values and posits that this is related to the higher wobble frequency. Note: a previous correlation with excessive tracking error turned out to have been caused by faulty measurements.

G
(Post no. 1234 :D)
Edit: add GSA-4168B note.
Last edited by MediumRare on Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bhairav on Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:25 am

Thanks for the summary, G! Anyway, one q.. was the LG retested with DL11 in the issue? It seems to have solved a lot of problems with the drive.
Q6600@3.1Ghz | Asus P5Q-E | 4GB DDR2-800 | 8800GT | 4TB HDD | Viewsonic vx2025wm
Xonar DX | Pioneer DVR-212 | Pioneer 111L | Benq 1655
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Postby MediumRare on Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:12 pm

Bhairav wrote:was the LG retested with DL11 in the issue?

?? This is the first time they looked at that drive and the magazine just goes on sale tomorrow! There is a lead time for print magazines, esp. with such detailed tests.

They didn't mention DL11, but may retest later- they've started to do that.

G
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Postby Francksoy on Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:25 pm

MediumRare, once again, =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
THANKS!

The report at DCFreaks was too unclear to my taste.

Cheers
Franck :)
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Postby Scour on Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:38 pm

Hello!

Thanks to MediumRare for this post. I´m looking forward to buy the magazine tomorrow, but it´s nice to see the results today :)

I read at Cdfreaks that c´t uses not the DL11, ala42 told me that the DL11 is much better than the DL10. Same problem with the Pioneer.
Benq DW 1640 and 1650 , Plextor PX-755, Pioneer BDR-208 and 209D, LG GH24NSC0, LG BH16NS40 and 16NS55, Liteon ihas 124F and 324F, Pioneer DVR-215 and S21, Samsung SH-224DB and 224GB, and some more

cu
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