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Who do YOU think won?

I think Kerry made the best impression. He was firm, never nervous
and didn't hesitate or pause nearly as much as Bush.

Kerry's very specific knowledge (e.g. the 24 apparently permanent bases being created in Iraq, even though the US is supposed to be there "temporarily") and on a number of other issues was impressive.

It also seemed to me that Bush was harping on the same issue (Kerry's waffling about his support of the war) over and over, a technique which apparently seems to work with the average voter.

Kerry was also strong on terrorism, which was something the population felt he had not been as resolute and firm on as Bush. I think that was what people thought was Kerry's biggest weakness and what hurt him in recent polls.

What really shocked me, was that the ENTIRE debate was about Iraq/Afghanistan (terrorism), WMD and foreign policy/affairs.
I understand that these are very important issues in the wake of 9/11 and other terrorist attacks; however, what about health care and other domestic issues?
The US has spent a whopping $200 billion on the war in Iraq, whereas there are a TON of problems here, and there have been a number of budget cutbacks in terms of domestic services.

Just my two cents...

Maybe the next two debates are supposed to address other issues?

I loved watching Bush's face. He went between being pissed off, to scared, to looking confused. Kerry looked very confident up there.

VEFF wrote:The US has spent a whopping $200 billion on the war in Iraq, whereas there are a TON of problems here, and there have been a number of budget cutbacks in terms of domestic services.

Kerry did point out that Bush has done very little here in this country. I loved his example about opening fire houses in Iraq and when those in the US are closing due to the lack of funds.

Yeah, all that BS about flip-flopping.. gimme a break. Can't a guy change his mind? Heck, I probably would have signed on with Bush at first, but after seeing how poorly things were handled over there, I'd change my mind too.

Domestic issues don't seem to be big with the average voter. Joe six-pack doesn't think far enough ahead to care about his retirement or give two craps about health care until he actually needs it. Me personally, I want to hear more about shipping jobs over seas.

Ian wrote:I loved watching Bush's face. He went between being pissed too, to scared, to looking confused. Kerry looked very confident up there.

VEFF wrote:The US has spent a whopping $200 billion on the war in Iraq, whereas there are a TON of problems here, and there have been a number of budget cutbacks in terms of domestic services.

Kerry did point out that Bush has done very little here in this country. I loved his example about opening fire houses in Iraq and when those in the US are closing due to the lack of funds.

Yeah, all that BS about flip-flopping.. gimme a break. Can't a guy change his mind? Heck, I probably would have signed on with Bush at first, but after seeing how poorly things were handled over there, I'd change my mind too.

Domestic issues don't seem to be big with the average voter. Joe six-pack doesn't think far enough ahead to care about his retirement or give two craps about health care until he actually needs it. Me personally, I want to hear more about shipping jobs over seas.

Yes, I was at my parents place watching it.
We loved watching his reactions and expressions of anger during some of Kerry's responses! It was as if he was a child not an adult!

I also had the same attitude about the flip flopping; especially since it was literally the only thing Bush seemed to have against Kerry!

I also thought the firehouse example was a perfect one to make a great point! It is especially notable when the war in Iraq cost the US $200 billion and the savings from closing firehouses in the US would represent a tiny (read negligeable) fraction of that figure!

Kerry's number should improve in the polls after this; he had been hurting as of late.

Shipping jobs overseas is something I would love to hear about for a number of reasons...

This was a Foreign Policy Debate, Domestic Issues Debate is later on.

I noticed Bush tried to avoid the question more, and it also hurt him when he kept going on & on about the "flip-flopping" crap, that's going by what I think and the live polling from CBS.

As Ian said, Bush looked quite nervous during most of it.

the only thing i'm interested is: did Kerry really sweat more? was the AC really turned up for that purpose ?

I think it was a tie.
BTW...Where did Kerry get $200 billion?The cost has been $119 billion(according to the GAO).As for shipping jobs overseas a President or Governor has little to do with that...e-mail/write the CEO's and tell them you won't buy their product or their stocks and it will stop.

aviationwiz wrote:This was a Foreign Policy Debate, Domestic Issues Debate is later on.

I noticed Bush tried to avoid the question more, and it also hurt him when he kept going on & on about the "flip-flopping" crap, that's going by what I think and the live polling from CBS.

As Ian said, Bush looked quite nervous during most of it.

Yes Bush was nervous; he was also so defensive and unsure that he seemed, at times at least, to be trying to convince HIMSELF he was telling the truth or was knowledgeable on certain issues.
There were lines like : "I know they did this" or "I know they do that" (wish I could remember the specifics and wish I could describe the exact tone in which he said them) which he said in a tone like an immature young man trying to defend himself from seeming unaware of facts and issues, but that are common knowledge and actually made him seem foolish for even trying to defend something that he didn't need to.
It is like him saying "I know 2 + 2 = 4" and defending it as if he feels inadequate in terms of intelligence and/or awareness.

I agree VEFF, that Kerry made the best impression. His speech was clear, calm, and his tone gave him the appearance of the voice of reason. So if you were to ask the everyman who won the debate, I believe they'd tell you Kerry did, at least if they were unbiased. I myself would tell you I think Kerry won if you base it purely off of speech-making and communications skills.

At the same time, Bush made some good points about Kerry's past decisions, voting decisions that have sometimes contradicted what Kerry claims to be his current views. Bush's position was not bad; but Bush is not the best debater, and he himself admits it. He needs to get his pauses, almost bordering on mild stammering, under control. Doing so would have put the two candidates on fairly equal footing. It might also help if he changed his style so that he doesn't hit the same points about Kerry repeatedly in rebuttal: being able to shift one's attack allows for more points from intelligent listeners, who want to know as much as they can.

Who really won in my opinion? My long answer is that regardless of who won, the debate did not address issues with enough depth (that is, the issues have depth, but the answers did not) to really declare a winner that would convince me to vote for either. Both candidates can tell you what they think the other will do wrong, and pledge what they won't do. However, a president is only as strong as Congress will let him be, and so many details are necessary in resolving issues in Iraq that a pledge during a debate is a pledge in name only --what one could call a piecrust promise: easily made, easily broken.

LoneWolf (McCain/Feingold in 2004)

There is little doubt Kerry is a better speaker, and I am normally a Republican.

For Bush to say ‘I know Osama attacked us’ made him sound childlike and somewhat snotty.

It is also easy to set the incumbent on the defensive. The President is much more in the public eye and has established a track record that half of the voting public will dislike, if attacked wisely.

I would love to see a debate where issues in people's hearts are taken up: firearms, abortion, welfare, etc.......

This will not happen because such issues will make enemies and no candidate will willfully alienate large contingents of voters – even 15% of voters can be a large stake to lose on ‘minor’ issues.

kevincott wrote:There is little doubt Kerry is a better speaker, and I am normally a Republican.

For Bush to say ‘I know Osama attacked us’ made him sound childlike and somewhat snotty.

It is also easy to set the incumbent on the defensive. The President is much more in the public eye and has established a track record that half of the voting public will dislike, if attacked wisely.

I would love to see a debate where issues in people's hearts are taken up: firearms, abortion, welfare, etc.......

This will not happen because such issues will make enemies and no candidate will willfully alienate large contingents of voters – even 15% of voters can be a large stake to lose on ‘minor’ issues.

Thanks for reminding me of the "I know Osama attacked us" quote; that is the one I was probably thinking of when I said childlike and defensive about something not even requiring a defense, but couldn't remember.

I agree regarding the likelihood of a debate about firearms, abortion and welfare among other topics.
Unfortunately everything in politics (at least the marketing part) is planned. They had a ton of rules about the debate, including camera angles that were disallowed.
They really plan every minute detail, albeit not susprisingly given the stakes.

I didn't see either of them say anything different.

Bush: "The world is safer!"

Kerry: "I'm not George Bush."

I've yet to see any real variation of these two themes and I don't believe the world is really any more or less safe nor do I care that Kerry isn't George Bush. If that is his greatest qualification, hell, I'M not George Bush.