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What's up with Car CD players?

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Postby dodecahedron on Sun May 15, 2005 4:52 pm

SkaarjMaster wrote:I will definitely look for a non-solvent based marker for my data CD-Rs/DVD-Rs though. That's a good idea. Any links to them?

i started a topic about this a while back, try searching for it.
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Sun May 15, 2005 5:59 pm

Here's an article about it that you commented in:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13621

Also, my guess is the higher the CD-R quality, the less chance of imbalance in the labeling screwing it up. Like I said, I'll take my chances for now one more time and see what happens. I have all the stuff on my computer and some on the other computer anyway. Thanks!
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon May 16, 2005 1:01 am

i was thinking of this topic:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19367
my bad, it wasn't i who started it.
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Mon May 16, 2005 11:52 am

:o Wow, some CD-Rs only last 2 years? I never knew that. So, if I burned something on a CD-R and whether I labeled it or not, it might only last 2 years? Looks like that no matter what I do, I may have to burn some of these CD-Rs (all are basically TDK data discs 74min. or 80min.)again anyway. Hopefully, the Taiyo Yuden ones will last a lot longer. Should be arriving on Thursday!
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Tue May 17, 2005 10:55 pm

:D OK, I've decided not to label them anymore (the music CD-Rs that is) and I'll just use a Sharpie on the data discs. I just had 5 more CD-Rs mess up this week and I checked the edges and it seems some labels are barely coming away from the edge and this is probably what caused the screwing up. I've actually never seen this before, but I never really looked for it either. Of these 5 CD-Rs, two had just static and another had static and skipping. I never got an error code with the last two, but did get a lot of hearing the car CD player spinning up and down trying to play the discs. I'll just leave the exposed silver of the Taiyo Yuden CD-R in a closed CD case and each one of these newly-burned music CD-Rs will probably not get played very often anyway. So as a new convert to the Church of Non-Paper Labeling Discs, what are my first duties?;)

Almost forgot, could any of this have to do with the CD-R being in the car all day while I was working in the car stereo (just one day) in Florida? I'm figuring the CD-R would have to be pretty dang cheap to not be able to take one day of car heat or am I just being too logical here? The only reason I'm bringing this up is that I usually listen to the first half of the CD-R on the way to work in the relatively cool morning and the second half on the way back from work. Most of the time it is coming back from work that I determine the CD-R is "toast", but not always. Does a CD-R get more sensitive or something the closer to the end of play it gets? Just a few things I'm wondering about. Thank you.

Er and another one bites the dust today. :o

....got a birthday present this morning and another CD-R is fine! Yippee! It's the little things in life........... :wink:

...err, the last 5 since my birthday are toast! :( Looks like a lot of burning on the Taiyo Yuden with no labels coming up soon. 8)
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:38 pm

OK, so most of my labelled CD-Rs are toast so far and have to be reburnt and I'm sure the ones that are fine will have to be reburnt sometime soon in the future. Along these lines, check the next paragraph for a question of sorts.

I have a large collection of rare Pink Floyd labelled CD-Rs and most are a mix of stuff and not from any one rare album/CD. What are the chances I do a disc copy in Nero (no faster than 8X of course) and the new CD-R (Taiyo Yuden Silver) has no problems and I saved these labelled Pink Floyd CD-Rs without having to reburn from MP3s I no longer have?
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:55 pm

if i understand you correctly, you have CD-Rs on which you burned MP3 files as Audio.
you can copy these audio tracks (rip them) but they will have the quality of the MP3 files they were created from (what i mean is, if you originally created the MP3s from an Audio CD, the quality of these will not be the same as the original Audio tracks).

if you copy them as Audio tracks (rip to the hard drive and then burn as an Audio CD) there's no reason the quality of the copy will be different from that of the source (=the burned CDs you now have). that is assuming you manage to rip OK. they CDs are labelled after all. and could be scratched etc. ripping might be problematic.

do NOT make MP3s again out of these, every time you make an MP3 there's (lossy) compression and loss of quality.

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Postby MediumRare on Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:20 pm

I'd suggest using Exact Audio Copy to rip these to your hard drive. Use "Action | Copy Image & Create CUE Sheet | Uncompressed" and burn the resulting cue sheet (+ WAV) with Nero as an image.

EAC will get everything from that disk that's there and as close to orignal as possible.

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Postby SkaarjMaster on Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:00 am

1. What's wrong with doing a "Copy Entire Disc" in Nero? Would there be a difference if I used EAC?

2. OK, I'm confused. So I shouldn't copy from CDA to MP3 just so I can have a copy on my computer also?
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Postby MediumRare on Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:11 am

SkaarjMaster wrote:1. What's wrong with doing a "Copy Entire Disc" in Nero? Would there be a difference if I used EAC?

If you have MP3 files on the CD, by all means just do a disc copy with Nero. This would be a data disc with the extra error correcting layer. Audio discs, don't have this extra information, though, and are more difficult to copy exactly.

If you used the MP3's to create a normal audio disc (like dodecahedron mentioned), you're better off using EAC, especially for discs that may be damaged like yours. EAC checks each sector on the CD and rereads it multiple times if necessary to recover the original information. It will reduce the reading speed (even under 1x) if necessary to do so. I know of no better tool for ripping audio CD's.

SkaarjMaster wrote:2. OK, I'm confused. So I shouldn't copy from
CDA to MP3 just so I can have a copy on my computer also?

See dodecahedron comments. Sure you can generate MP3's again, but be aware: MP3 is a lossy format and everytime you convert a WAV to MP3, you lose quality, especially for low bit-rate files.

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Postby SkaarjMaster on Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:51 am

1. OK, I'll give EAC a try. Am I seeing the web site correct and he has the date in European format and the last beta was released June 1, 2005? Do I want the CDRDAO version or the non-CDRDAO version?

To tell you the truth, I believe some files were copied directly from the CD and others were WAV files and some may also have been MP3s. I have no idea which were which, so sounds like EAC is the way to go.

2. So, if I want a copy of the files just make sure they're WAV files? Can I just use the files converted using EAC before burning a new disc?
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Postby MediumRare on Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:40 pm

Yes, the latest release is from 1 June. DAE has been a beta for years, but it's much more stable than, e.g. MS office applications.

CDRDAO is apparently a burning app. I've never used it and if you have Nero, it'll burn a cue-based image without problems. It had some bugs the last time I checked the EAC forum, so skip it unless you want to play around.

What EAC does is generate WAV files on your harddrive. Depending on your options, it'll make one file for the whole disc (which is what I suggested for copying your discs) or separate files for each track. You can then convert the WAV files to MP3 with your favorite app for use on your computer. EAC doesn't come with an MP3-generator, but has support for LAME (which you have to download and install separately).

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Postby SkaarjMaster on Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:31 pm

"it'll make one file for the whole disc (which is what I suggested for copying your discs)"

Of course, sort of like ISO. I just don't do this very often at all, so I forgot about it.
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:04 pm

Ok, I did it with EAC and Nero. I'll see how it plays in the car stereo tomorrow. I kept all the default settings for EAC, except change the following:

- normalize to 98% but only if peak level is smaller than 85% or greater than 99% (Is this bad for Pink Floyd music?) I usually normalize between tracks in Nero, but this seemed to normalize within the track.

- Interface changed to Native Win32 Interface for WinXP. Either this needed changing for the program to work or I needed to bring all tracks into Winamp from CD-ROM before EAC would work and I don't know which but it worked.

Let me know if I'm missing something here.

EDIT: well, I tried playing it in my car stereo this morning (CUE burned CD in Nero) and it acted like it was playing, but no sound and it was the same on my computer. I tried then burning the separate WAV files and it was fine. Obviously, I'm missing something with this CUE sheet burning.
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:18 pm

SkaarjMaster wrote:EDIT: well, I tried playing it in my car stereo this morning (CUE burned CD in Nero) and it acted like it was playing, but no sound and it was the same on my computer. I tried then burning the separate WAV files and it was fine. Obviously, I'm missing something with this CUE sheet burning.

This is weird!
I suppose just burning the WAV file is OK too- you don't lose anything if they're individual WAV files, but the index marks are gone if it's a complete image, as is CD-Text information if present. I've been using EAC cue sheets to burn just about all my audio CDs for a couple of years because of some drawbacks in maintaining Nero audio compilations. I edit in CD-text information by hand (the stuff I listen to isn't in the free cddb). But I've never encountered a problem like yours. :o

Did Nero give you any error messages? Maybe I can see something if you post the CUE file...

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Postby SkaarjMaster on Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:18 pm

I deleted the large WAV file and the CUE file, because I didn't need them anymore (oops!). Anyway, maybe it's a bug with the new version of EAC or it didn't like my burner/firmware/Nero combo or maybe I missed an EAC Options setting or Drive Options setting in EAC.(???) I still have the "coaster"; is there any information that can be extracted off it that might help?

Yes, I just typed in song/artist info for each track and the CD in Nero and burned the WAV files just like I do with MP3s (burned as an Audio CD in Nero Express) to burn the WAv files separately. As far as the CUE file, maybe I forgot to set something correctly in the non-Nero Express (regular Nero) section? Or maybe Nero didn't like the CUE and WAV files being in another partition?

Just curious.....what do you mean by Nero audio compilations and what are some of the drawbacks? ........to not get too Off Topic that is.
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:25 pm

Most EAC drive options just refer to the ripping process. I've never bothered with the burning options since Nero can do that well.
In any case, since you've got a working disc, you're OK. If you want to copy some more, you could try burning a CD-RW with the CUE sheet and try it in your computer / home rig instead of risking another coaster.
SkaarjMaster wrote:Just curious.....what do you mean by Nero audio compilations and what are some of the drawbacks? ........to not get too Off Topic that is.

I like to add CD-Text information to the compilation and tend to leave the ripped WAV files on my hard drive until space gets tight. I've rearranged my directory structure a couple of times and Nero has no way to locate a moved file- it just tells you it may have been moved. It actually treats all files this way, but it's particularly annoying with WAV files because all the information I've manually added is gone and I have to reenter it. You can edit a binary .RNA file a bit, but if you change the length of a track name, it corrupts the file- so other than changing a drive letter, you're SOL.

A CUE sheet, on the other hand, is a simple text file with a clear structure and it's easy to change file names or the order of tracks or to make new compialtions all with your favourite text editor. That's why I prefer them to Nero's binary project files.

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Postby SkaarjMaster on Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:55 pm

The only thing that I can see might have messed up the CUE sheet ripping process is in the EAC/EAC Options/Tools there are two items relating to the CUE sheet and I have one checked and the other not:

-unchecked >> Retrieve UPC/ISRC codes in CUE sheet generation
-checked >> Use CD-Text information in CUE sheet generation

Under EAC/Drive Options/Extraction Method it automatically selected Burst Mode. Under EAC/Drive Options/OffsetSpeed, actual speed selection and allow speed reduction during extraction are both set as well as the first item (use read sample offset correction and this is set to zero). These seem to all be default settings, so I'm not sure the ripping process went wrong. I'm thinking the burning process in Nero messed up somehow. I'll examine this later. I'm fresh out of CD-RWs, but I think I have a method down that works anyway.

"Nero's binary project files"
Ah, so you're doing this within Nero. I can move some stuff a lot as well, so I'll skip this. I usually just label it before I burn it within Nero anyway. So, a CUE sheet basically tells the program how to burn the huge WAV file? That's interesting........I'll have to investigate this further and maybe get it working with Nero burning.
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Postby evanrabby on Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:15 pm

SkaarjMaster wrote:OK, huge bump (the thread that is). This has been and still is with a CD player I own now in my car (Pioneer DEH-P6500).

Today I was listening to a burned CD-R and it was fine until near the end (maybe this has something to do with it heating up). It didn't really skip it made loud static kinda like whirrawhirrawhirra and got louder when the music got louder. This is what is normally happening now on my Pioneer car stereo these days. I've been playing burned ones all this time. I'm trying a store-bought one tomorrow and I'll see what happens. I think there is something to this heat thing. Maybe I could get and fan and hook it behind the unit and blow air over it while it is operating? It would have to operate out of the car lighter plug though I think. Anyone else having these problems? Is it only burned CD-Rs? My burners are both Lite-On and using Nero to burn. Most have been burnt at 16X or 24X. Maybe I'll try a new one at 8X and see what happens. Also, it seems to happen to the CD-Rs that have a lot of music on them as well more often.

.......I was wondering though, would this static (whirring thing in the background) be more the quality of the CD-R or the quality of the original MP3 file? I know the original MP3s play fine on the computers and all the CD-Rs that give me problems in the car stereo play fine on the home stereo and both computers. I might try ordering some Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs and burn the same thing and see what happens.

....today again with a burned CD-R (80-min one; I believe the other one was 74 min.), around the 8th song the staticy whiring started on my way home from work. It usually happens on the way home from work because I listen to the first few songs on the way to work. I'm just wondering if it's more the CD-R quality, more the MP3 quality or more the car stereo heating up. By the way, my car stereo can't play MP3s, so they are all converted before burning. :(



i did tests with liteon 52327s and 24x speed burned best. 4 and 8x did the static/scratchy thing on my crappy reference ghettoblasters, and 16x a little, 24x were fine, and 32x and higher would take a long time to read the disc, 52x alway scratchy at end of disc. it seems media is optimized for a certain speed. this was some cmc magnetics and some ritek media i tried. Disks always get harder to read near the end of the disc as the outside of disc is shakier (disks read from the inside out, opposite of record players like that cool car phonograph, whish would sell for thousande today i bet!!! i'd pay several hundred for an old super retro vinyl car player).

cd labels make no difference for off balance since they only spin at 1x to 4x speed in a player, but heat might warp some labels relative to the disc.. any cd left in ANY direct sunlight will degrade in less than 2 weeks. i exposed a disc to direct sun behind a window 8 hours a day and it took less than 10 days to be toast. even a cd in the case if exposed to sun will wash out the OUTSIDE of the disc where4 it is still exposed a little more than the inside.

Try burning at 24x only, and test the last part of a full 80 minute burn. just try the higher speeds and the lowest (4x) for comparison. i bet you'll find the 4x burn was worse.
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:09 pm

8X seems to be working for me so far. What speed are the #1160 Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs optimized for?
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Postby Bhairav on Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:47 am

SkaarjMaster wrote:8X seems to be working for me so far. What speed are the #1160 Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs optimized for?


What's their ATIP? 972401 = 40X, 972402 = 48X, 972403 = 52X.
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:00 am

I could have sworn I had the ATIP information posted somewhere on this forum, but I can't find it now for some bizarre reason. Anyway, it's the 52X #1160s that I have. Could someone please clarify this "CD-R optimizied for a certain speed" issue versus burning at 8X to get the car stereo to play it better as suggested earlier in this thread? Also, I have the 851S in my newer computer and will be using this to burn 95% of the time, but I do have the 52X Lite-On burner in my other machine. Thank you.
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Postby evanrabby on Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:19 am

what happens at 24x? try a 24x burn if you haven't, i'd be curious what burner and disc would do better at 8x for my cdr duplicators. usually they seem to do worse at below or above 24x...
and i'll repeat my tests again myself on some of my bad reference burners with good media and some middle of the road media and see what speed works and post here again soon.

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Postby Coyote on Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:57 pm

I have a Honda Accord, and it's factory in-dash 6-disc player, sometimes does the same thing. Even on new TY media (made in Japan). Even on PRESSED CD's!!! I check the underside for fingerprints, NO fingerprints or scratches. Still it skips.

I don't understand why car manufacturers don't offer better head units. This CD player doesn't even have a buffer for skip protection!!!! My $20 portable player has a 40-sec buffer!!!! It wouldn't cost them a cent to add it. The physical looks of factory units leave little to be desired too. Big ugly buttons, ugly displays.

Compact Disc format has been out now for how many years? Since 1983!
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Postby SkaarjMaster on Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:32 pm

I should hope my Pioneer is at least a little better than that. If I burn all these again and it still skips, I may be looking for a better car stereo system if one exists. :-?
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