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PX-716UF + Memorex (RITEK D01) 2.4X 8.5GB DVD+R DL

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PX-716UF + Memorex (RITEK D01) 2.4X 8.5GB DVD+R DL

Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:24 am

I've had a Plextor PX-716UF for about 9 months now and I never have any issues burning CDROMS or DVDs until I bought these:

Memorex (RITEK D01) 2.4X 8.5GB DVD+R DL

These were the first Dual Layer discs I have ever purchased. The reason I purchased them was to make UDF format backup copies of files. For UDF format, error free burning is essential of course, whereas an error or two might not matter on a DVD format movie. I make these UDF format backup copies with Plextools Professional XL V.3.08 and my firmware version on my drive is updated the latest.

Whenever I make a UDF format disc with this media I have about a 10% success rate. The rest are coasters. The errors don't show up until the "verify data" sequence where Plextools verifies the data just burned onto the DVD. Then I get a "cyclic redundancy check" when I try to read the file off the DVD with the error. I can create a DVD movie copy with them but cannot reliably create a data cd with them.

I've done a lot of reading on these boards and it's clear to me that the RITEK D01 is not recommended. What is not clear is how to buy "recommended media".

I know of this link: http://plextor.com/english/support/716_ ... _DVD-R.htm

...it shows what media is recommended. However I despise Best Buy and I buy nearly all my CDs online. When purchasing online, I can specify the type and brand of CD but things like Manufacturer ID and Media Manufacturer aren't usually listed online. In fact, I couldn't find these things on the outside of the Memorex media I purchased, the only way I could determine what they were was by reading a blank disk for that data.

Goal: I want to buy the best possible Dual Layer 8.5 GB disc I can that will work ideally in a Plextor PX-716UF for the purpose of making UDF format file backups. I will most likely buy this online - somewhere. Can anyone give recommendations on what specifically and where to buy? I often buy from newegg.com that has a wide selection of media, but they do not show Manufacturer IDs.

I had no idea media brand was so signfiicant when burning DVDs. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Postby Ian on Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:13 pm

Buy Verbatim 2.4x or 8x DVD+R DL media. You won't regret it (your wallet might though).
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:28 pm

If you don't *need* that 8.5GB capacity, you'd probably be better off with standard single layer discs. They're far cheaper, they're more reliable, and there's far more selection.

At the moment, Staples has Sony 8X DVDR 50pks for $14.94. If you can find a *MADE IN JAPAN* spindle with an octogonal spacer on top (as opposed to round gray), you'll be fine.
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:34 pm

[buck] wrote:If you don't *need* that 8.5GB capacity, you'd probably be better off with standard single layer discs. They're far cheaper, they're more reliable, and there's far more selection.


Well, the whole purpose of me investing in a PX-716UF was so that I could actually use it to burn 8.5 GB discs. I have a need for large amounts of static offline storage, and this seemed to be a good way to go.

After the Verbatim recommendation, I ended up buying two of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817131163

I haven't received them yet of course. Do you guys think that is a good choice for what I'm trying to do? (UDF Format Data CDs)

With the Plextor firmware version I'm using (v.1.09) it says I should be able to burn DVD+/-R at 6X CLV. That's a big bonus for me as waiting an hour (2.4X writing) to burn then verify data on each cd before I remove files from my hard drive is a big hassle.
Last edited by Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:39 pm

Xar wrote:
[buck] wrote:If you don't *need* that 8.5GB capacity, you'd probably be better off with standard single layer discs. They're far cheaper, they're more reliable, and there's far more selection.


Well, the whole purpose of me investing in a PX-716UF was so that I could actually use it to burn 8.5 GB discs. I have a need for large amounts of static offline storage, and this seemed to be a good way to go.

After the Verbatim recommendation, I ended up buying two of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817131163

I haven't received them yet of course. Do you guys think that is a good choice for what I'm trying to do? (UDF Format Data CDs)


Excellent choice. In fact, it seems that you've found yourself quite a good deal, because I've never seen 8X Verbatim DVD+R DLs at that price before.

I will warn you though, I hope you're not doing any serious archiving on these, because, franckly, recordable DL media just isn't suitable for archival.

EDIT: the newegg picture says 2.4X, but the description says 8X. Let us know what you get.
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:43 pm

Xar wrote:With the Plextor firmware version I'm using (v.1.09) it says I should be able to burn DVD+/-R at 6X CLV. That's a big bonus for me as waiting an hour (2.4X writing) to burn then verify data on each cd before I remove files from my hard drive is a big hassle.


Well, if you do get 8X media, you'll be fine burning them at 8X. If they're 2.4X, 4X is the best choice.
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:49 pm

[buck] wrote:I will warn you though, I hope you're not doing any serious archiving on these, because, franckly, recordable DL media just isn't suitable for archival.


Well it's not like it's a business purpose... here's what I'm doing. I create AVI files of TV shows with my DVR. Once I have a whole season, I burn them all to multiple DVDs. Each episode is about 350 MB. For instance my Star Trek Voyager collection is about 50 GB total. I don't really want to lose any data but it's not like I'll be severely impacted by a data loss. I am, however, concerned about your last statement. If DVD DL writable media is marketed and you're able to produce a good copy (verifying data) should not that copy be good forever assuming the DVD doesn't get physically damaged in some way?

[buck] wrote:EDIT: the newegg picture says 2.4X, but the description says 8X. Let us know what you get.


I should receive them around Wednesday or Thursday of this week. I'll be sure to let you know the specifics of what happens when I get them. Thanks for your advice and time. :)
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:51 pm

[buck] wrote:Well, if you do get 8X media, you'll be fine burning them at 8X. If they're 2.4X, 4X is the best choice.


The Plextor PX-716UF running firmware v.1.09 shows the possible write speeds on DVD+/-R DL as being:

6X CLV
4X CLV
2.4X CLV
2X CLV

8X is not an option. Would you recommend 6X as the best alternative if they are really 8X capable media?
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:03 pm

Xar wrote:Well it's not like it's a business purpose... here's what I'm doing. I create AVI files of TV shows with my DVR. Once I have a whole season, I burn them all to multiple DVDs. Each episode is about 350 MB. For instance my Star Trek Voyager collection is about 50 GB total. I don't really want to lose any data but it's not like I'll be severely impacted by a data loss. I am, however, concerned about your last statement. If DVD DL writable media is marketed and you're able to produce a good copy (verifying data) should not that copy be good forever assuming the DVD doesn't get physically damaged in some way?


Any non-defective media will be able to produce a "good copy", as you put it. However, no recordable media lasts "forever". All write-once, recordable DVDR media use organic dyes, which degrades on its own. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how media can fail!

Quality CD-Rs (Taiyo Yuden, MAM-A/MAM-E/Mitsui etc) should be good for at least 5-10years, but likely more.

Quality single layer DVDRs (well bonded Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim, well bonded Maxell, Ricoh, etc) should be good for at least 5 years. It's hard to tell how much longer though, as DVDRs have only been around for ~3 years.

It's hard to tell how long a DVD+R DL will last, but probably not as long as a single layer DVDR of equivlent quality.

Xar wrote:I should receive them around Wednesday or Thursday of this week. I'll be sure to let you know the specifics of what happens when I get them. Thanks for your advice and time. :)


You're most welcome. :)

Xar wrote:8X is not an option. Would you recommend 6X as the best alternative if they are really 8X capable media?

It appears that you're correct! I guess I need to brush up a little on my Plextor drive specs! :lol:

Yes, 6X would be the best option for 8X DVD+R DL media.
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:05 pm

Verbatim model number 95166 is what I bought.

I found this link on Verbatim's site for this product.

http://www.verbatim.com/products/product_detail.cfm?product_id=85441E97-65B0-5A0F-83F32E00B5CDD726&pc_parent=76F06320-48F1-485E-8E286B6E0039C276

The packaging says 2.4X but the description says up to 8X. Maybe they just got lazy with the packaging. :lol:
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:14 pm

[buck] wrote:Any non-defective media will be able to produce a "good copy", as you put it. However, no recordable media lasts "forever". All write-once, recordable DVDR media use organic dyes, which degrades on its own. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how media can fail!


Gosh. Going a little off topic here but I'm surprised. I was under the impression that if I go out and buy a DVD (retail) with movie on it that DVD should pretty much last forever (i.e. 20+ years). I ASSUMED that DVD writable media - the kind we home users purchase - would have that same kind of lifetime. What is the difference between the lifetimes of commercially produced DVDs (which are dual layer) and the kind we burn at home (of similar capacity)?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:29 pm

Regarding the Verbatim DVD+RDL media you bought, it is 2.4x rated media, that is compatible up to 8x on some drives. The newer Verbatim packaging says "Compatible up to 8x" on it, so NewEgg took it upon themselves to advertise it as 8x media. This is false advertising and I will be reporting it to Verbatim. Only a few drives can burn this media at 8x, and most newer drives cannot.

This is just one more way that NewEgg seems to be going downhill...
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:29 pm

Xar wrote:Gosh. Going a little off topic here but I'm surprised. I was under the impression that if I go out and buy a DVD (retail) with movie on it that DVD should pretty much last forever (i.e. 20+ years). I ASSUMED that DVD writable media - the kind we home users purchase - would have that same kind of lifetime. What is the difference between the lifetimes of commercially produced DVDs (which are dual layer) and the kind we burn at home (of similar capacity)?


Correct, retail ("pressed") DVDs should last at least 20 years. They're not immune to failure though, and defective pressed DVDs are not that rare.

You can't really compare a pressed DVD to a recordable DVD, because they're too very different technologies. A Pressed DVD is basically a sheet of alumium with the data "stamped" on it, sandwiched between two .6mm layers of polycarbonate. A recordable DVD is usually a silver reflective layer with a dye layer on top of it, also sandwiched between two .6mm layers of polycarbonate. On a recordable DVD, the laser has to "burn" the dye, creating "lands and pits".

Obviously, a sheet of alumium is more stable than a dye layer.
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Dolphin: Ahh I understand better now. I'll be sure to post what speed I'm able to write (successfully) at with my PX-716UF.

Buck: Thanks for the background on how writable DVDs differ from commercial DVDs. Very good information to know!
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:18 pm

Wow guys look at this.

http://www.plextor.com/english/support/716_Media_List_DVD+R_DL.htm

That link shows my horrible RITEK D01 that are instacoasters whenever I try to burn a UDF 8.5 GB DVD.

I can't believe Plextor even mentions them as compatible!! Grr!
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:20 pm

Xar wrote:Wow guys look at this.

http://www.plextor.com/english/support/716_Media_List_DVD+R_DL.htm

That link shows my horrible RITEK D01 that are instacoasters whenever I try to burn a UDF 8.5 GB DVD.

I can't believe Plextor even mentions them as compatible!! Grr!


You have to understand what Plextor means when they say "compatible". By compatible, they mean there is a write strategy in the firmware for it - that's what compatible is from a drive manufacturer's standpoint. Notice though, they are NOT recommended, but Verbatim are.
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:05 pm

Understood Buck, thanks again for the clarification! I can't wait for my Verbatims to arrive... I'm eager to try them out. 8)

Incidentally is there such a thing as DVD+/-R DL RW?
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:08 pm

Xar wrote:Understood Buck, thanks again for the clarification! I can't wait for my Verbatims to arrive... I'm eager to try them out. 8)

Incidentally is there such a thing as DVD+/-R DL RW?


Not really. JVC is trying to push DVD-RW DL really hard, but there still isn't a single drive that supports DVD-RW DL!!
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Postby Xar on Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:22 pm

[buck] wrote:Not really. JVC is trying to push DVD-RW DL really hard, but there still isn't a single drive that supports DVD-RW DL!!


Understood! Well so far I learned more about DVDs in one day than I have in the past year!! Unfortunately I'm now worried about the long-term stability of all the DVDs I've written and archived so far. I figured DVD would be a good/cheap/fast alternative to lower capacity tape drives but it sounds as if the DL stuff is so new that long term data integrity (especially for UDF format DVDs) might be in question. Oh well... there's no way I could fit all my DVDs back on my hard drives. I have two terabytes of local storage in addition to my system raid, one terabyte array backs up the other, so in effect only 1 TB. I guess I shouldn't be such a data/movie/tvshow packhound.
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Postby [buck] on Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:52 pm

What media (brand, media code) have you been using to date?
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Postby Xar on Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:43 am

[buck] wrote:What media (brand, media code) have you been using to date?


For file backups off my drive array you mean? I have burned about 150 CD ROMs of various brands and media codes as well as about 30 DVD-RW (4.38GB) Maxell DVDs, MID: OPTODISCW002. Never had a failed burn.

When you compare 600mb to 8.5 GB you can see why I wanted a higher density per disc. Once I get a DVD DL media with reliable UDF recording I'm going to transfer all the stuff I have on CD ROM to the DL media. 60% of 1 TB have never been backed up (except to the second drive array).

My goal is to eventually move all static content currently on CD ROM to DVD DL UDF format discs and free up my second drive array for other things. I'll probably leave the 4.38 GB DVDs I've burned the way they are for now.
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Postby Xar on Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:54 am

I use two of these to hold all my cds and dvds:

http://www.dvd-rwmedia.com/cd-dvd-manager-organizer-library.html
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Postby frank1 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:30 am

Xar wrote:I figured DVD would be a good/cheap/fast alternative to lower capacity tape drives but it sounds as if the DL stuff is so new that long term data integrity (especially for UDF format DVDs) might be in question. Oh well... there's no way I could fit all my DVDs back on my hard drives. I have two terabytes of local storage in addition to my system raid, one terabyte array backs up the other, so in effect only 1 TB. I guess I shouldn't be such a data/movie/tvshow packhound.

I think that you should read this:
« Will BD-R discs be A LOT BETTER for long time archiving ? »
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21454
and think about it when the technology will be available to the public for a reasonable price ...
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Postby Xar on Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:49 pm

frank1 wrote:I think that you should read this:
« Will BD-R discs be A LOT BETTER for long time archiving ? »
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21454
and think about it when the technology will be available to the public for a reasonable price ...


That's a very good read - quite interesting! Possible that will (eventually) solve my issue if it pans out the way they say it does.

Unfortunately I don't like being on the bleeding edge that much. Blu-ray is but one standard of two being introduced and I'm not investing in a yet another high price burner (at least not right away, I just invested in a PX-716UF less than a year ago) that runs a standard that may go the way of the beta video cartridge.

Good to see that they're moving the technology in a direction that promotes longevity!

My goal is to have backup media that survives forever with 100% integrity even when exposed to:

1. Roommates.
2. Children's fingers.
3. My fingers.
4. General house atmosphere.
5. Nuclear winter. (movies will be in big demand then)
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Postby MediumRare on Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:59 pm

Xar wrote:Incidentally is there such a thing as DVD+/-R DL RW?

In addition to JVC, Philips has also released the specs for DVD+RW DL media. There was an item at heise a few days ago. They're only planned for 2.4x and reflectivity is lower than JVC's specs.

Needless to say, there aren't any drives for this media yet either. :wink:

G
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