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Archival quality of CD media

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Archival quality of CD media

Postby NuGuy on Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:49 am

I know this has been discussed in the past, but can someone point me to an in-depth discussion (comprehensive web page) regarding the dyes and other materials that go into the manufacture of blank CD discs, especially one that provides examples (i.e., names of mfrs./discs)., AND how these different types relate to the stability of the recorded information?

I recently read that discs with the common greenish-bluish hue aren't very good. I happened to casually mention this today to someone, and he nearly got bent out shape, believing that his "archives" were "safe" on the green-blue discs. I recall that perhaps Mitsui Gold discs are the best. Maybe there are discs with good archival quality that don't cost as much as the Mitsui golds..?

Anyone/everyone -- Thanks!
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:03 am

I would say that Mitsui Gold's are probably the best "easily" available media for archiving.I say "easily" because most of the other manufacturers have stopped making discs similar to Mitsui's gold line.

The fact is, if you want archival quality like that, you have to be prepared to pay a little bit more for it.
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Thanks...

Postby NuGuy on Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:12 am

I just read on a site that sells Mitusi that they're good for 200 years. I think 80-100 is enough. :D

So, maybe some middle-of-the-road type/brand -- not so expensive -- might be available?
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Postby TheWizard on Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:22 am

The problem is, we have no idea how long even the so-called best (Mitsui) media will last. Sure, Mitsui may advertise a 200 year life, but that may be purely a marketing scheme. And, even if it is true, it may be only under very optimal circumstances. I think Taiyo Yuden, also a top-notch brand, advertises a very long life (100 years or so), but how do we know if a TY disc will last 100 years? We don't know until 100 years have passed. If the first recordable disc was made in 1904, then we would have a basis. Since the first recordable disc was made much later, we'll have to wait a while in order to get a good basis.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:16 am

TheWizard wrote:The problem is, we have no idea how long even the so-called best (Mitsui) media will last. Sure, Mitsui may advertise a 200 year life, but that may be purely a marketing scheme. And, even if it is true, it may be only under very optimal circumstances. I think Taiyo Yuden, also a top-notch brand, advertises a very long life (100 years or so), but how do we know if a TY disc will last 100 years? We don't know until 100 years have passed. If the first recordable disc was made in 1904, then we would have a basis. Since the first recordable disc was made much later, we'll have to wait a while in order to get a good basis.


I couldn't have put it better myself :D
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Postby RJW on Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:00 am

the 200 years is based on a arhenius ageing test.
Now can we trust it is a question a lot of people have asked me ?

Well the answer is NO !
These results are way to optimistic.

Why ?
What was tested under what conditions, how was the interpretation done and what is the reliability of the measurement are sometimes quite weard interpretated. I know some site results from a test which came on above 100 years makeing a guess of the error /margin of the result I found out that it could easily have been 125 years or 75 years.
No sometimes companny play it quite fair and take the lower limit years still it's questionable.
Kodak once showed very specific testresults. The only problem was that they gave away to much info to back there conclusion. Now kodak did some alternative testing on alternate conditions. And yes like I allready knew it showed that the arhenius test result can be optimised to good and to bad under some specific conditions. A very rough interpretation of these results showed that they could me miles off. Kodak might have seen this themselves since they claimed a lot lower years as the test was saying. Still it shows us that these tests could be manipultated.

This sort of ageing tests only measures effects caused by reaction, heat, humidity not by other sources like UV. Like most people now UV can have a mayor influence for CD-r's. (Put a disc in sunlight and it might be screwed next day.) Now the stability of sunlight is also related to the top layer a better top layer with UV protection means better results. This one of the few extra's the VINYL coated disc's have.

Since the UV aspect isn't in the arhenius tests it will give us for 9 of the 10 disc's a to positvie result !
A combined test might be the option but for that newer standards should be set and it should be optimised for maximum disc destroying.
In other words these tests give us some info. But the end info is still way to optimistic. Still if a disc would score a year or 5 or less (Ritek G03/Princo !(these 2 were counted out perfect by the arhenius test results)
I would avoid the media. A high score does say something about stability but never gives a exact result of how long it can last under real conditions.



By the way MAM-E/MAM-A site is one mayor advertisement for there dye technology. When it is compared to other dye's keep in mind the following.
Cyanine in Mitsui tabel is taiwanese cyanine not the metal stabilized TY stuff
AZO - is not metal stabilized MCC AZO. But taiwan AZO !
Now this means a much worse performance for AZO.

If AZO really was a bad dye then why are allmost all good DVD manufacturers are usseing a AZO dye based medium for there DVD media and why does MAM have problems with there "golden" dye dvd's.
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Thanks again, but...

Postby NuGuy on Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:45 pm

OK, I see that we really can't quantify this in absolute years. Perhaps we can rank (qualify, deduce) probable archival quality based on a disc's materials composition (I think RJW was going this way). If we can't do this, then perhaps any of the cheap (disc-of-the-month) stuff you end up getting for free (after rebates) at Best Buy is as good as anything out there...?

Let me simply ask for a recommendation of a disc mfr & type that you guys would use if you wanted your yet-unborn great grandchildren to be able to view some day. Or maybe something to go into a time capsule... :D

Please list two (first and second choices) if possible. Thanks.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:43 pm

I would say Mitsui Gold (or Mitsui Medical Grade CD-Rs), followed by Taiyo Yuden... but I really feel the that Mitsui Gold is the way to go on this one.
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Postby RJW on Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:00 am

Hey Rex, aren't we forgeting:
kodak gold /datalife plus gold

excellent and expensive for archivieng:

Ceramic coated Taiyo yuden disc's (That's , EMTEC/BASF 650mb(old stock)
Mitsui medical grade disc's
MAM PRO studio
Kodak Gold(inculding Verbatim datalife plus gold)
Mitsui gold(OLD STOCK !)
Verbatim medical

Good and payable
branded Taiyo yuden media from: Plextor,Fuji,Philips(very old stock), Sony(very old stock !)
Verbatim datalife plus /Mitsubishi printable disc's.

Good but with some doubts
TY budget media ! like Taibotech,Parrot, Budget - The top layer is scratch sensitive for the rest the media scores excellent.

Promising but quality for archiving is actually unknown !
Ritek (TG) -No real experience testing with this media but so far error levels and user reports seem to give the idea that Ritek finally has a excellent disc !

The oldest TY media is perfoming just as good as newer burned TY disc's.

personal favorites are Ceramic coated TY. since these disc's are excellent made (TY quality) and have probally the best top layer out there!

All disc's have some good and bad spots in the end the whole picture counted.
To give some idea's here we go
Kodak ultima gold
- reflectivity / hard to get after Kodak quite the bussiness.
+ contsruction quality allmost as good as TY /Gold +pthalocyanine

TY Ceramic coated !
- metalized cyanine dye
+ Best Construction quality+best coating

Verbatim medical
- AZO dye is problematic on some burners
+ construction quality

Mitsui Medical grade/Pro studio /MAM-A Archival
+ gold + pthalocyanine
- construction quality specially side coating

Most profesionals (in the recording ) world store there data on
Taiyo yuden and Mitsui (Gold) media the change that both fail at the same time with yearly check ups is very small. In the old days it was Kodak and TY mostly.
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Postby NuGuy on Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:07 pm

Thanks, guys!

RJW - You've presented a lot of detailed info for me to digest. (I don't have the technical background to do it well.) In my initial post I suggested a disc with decent archival quality and less expense than Mitsui Gold. You and Rex both seem to be pointing to TY as a good alternative to Mitsui Gold. You've also noted various TY discs out there -- ceramic coated, branded, and economy branded. The ceramic coated may be nearly as expensive as the Mitsui Gold(??). I'm wondering about the branded TY's archival quality. From what I read here, even recently, identifying genuine TY-manufactured discs selling as branded can be a problem.

(If my message seems a little incoherent, forgive me. I had the "never ending pancakes" at IHOP last night. Didn't sleep well. Hung over this morning. :o )

Thanks again.
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Postby NuGuy on Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:48 pm

Just ran across this -- haven't yet checked or read the links yet, but looks interesting:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... ge=7386443
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:31 pm

I chose the media I suggested based off of the fact that they were still being produced. There *are* better things then Mitsui Gold, like the Kodak Gold's and probably the Verbatim Data Life Gold's hat rjw mentioned, but they have not been manufactured in so long that they are almost impossible to find now...
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