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1)Best DVD media for Longevity? 2)Shelf life BEFORE burning?

General discussion about recordable CD, DVD and BD media and write quality testing.

1)Best DVD media for Longevity? 2)Shelf life BEFORE burning?

Postby VEFF on Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:01 am

Hi guys and girls,

I saw Dolphinius' media longevity test thread.
Nice effort! Thanks.
I will check the results later on.

In the meantime, I have some questions if anyone can help:

1) Any tips on the best brand and / or type (model and / or dye) DVD-R and DVD+R for longevity would be greatly appreciated?

I googled for longevity tests but came up with a huge number of results.
I started to read them but haven't too much specific info.
Obviously Verbatim's DataLife (Plus or regular) are often mentioned.
I assume AZO dye is referred to in a lot of the articles.
I'll keep reading, but I don't want to go nuts; I just want a high quality DVD+R and DVD-R.

I have a Staples gift card, so I could start there, but I will need a reasonable number of discs 50 to 100.
To be safe I will throw out all my old blank CD and DVD discs (close to 1,000), as much as it pains me since some of it is Fuji TY 8X DVD+R shrink-wrapped media.
Luckily the majority of it is FAR or $10 after rebate 100-disc spindles of CD-R media.
I don't even want to sell any of them, since I feel it would be unfair to the buyer(s) who might not be aware of longevity issues.
The only thing I may sell is four 25 pack spindles of Office Depot Dual LayerDVD media since it is pretty fresh.
I will put a note that this may not be the best quality and link to videohelp.com media comments.


2) This a general (not media specific) question about the shelf life of BLANK media:
Is blank CD/DVD media sitting around going to have better overall (i.e. from date of manufacture till date of failure) than burned media?

The reason I ask is that I have media that has been sitting around for a couple of years and wanted to know if I should just chuck it all and buy brand new media from a high volume retail store where they will have pretty fresh stock.

I have 600 - 700 old shrink-wrapped CD-R's that are probably 5 - 6 years old that I will either throw away, or find some non-burning use for since I want them to last for a while AFTER burning them.
I do have CD-R's burned with video clips and other data from 2001 that, for the most part, still play (video).
A surprisingly relatively small percentage are choppy or unreadable.
I will check some old data CD's today to see how they fared.

3) I believe DVD media, in general, lasts longer than CD-R due to the construction / design?



4) Which is the best tool to check old discs for read issues?


5) I read the following on http://www.auphanonline.com/articles/vi ... le_id=3465 (came up during a google search; haven't verified the trustworthiness of the author and / or site)
QUOTE:
These are three major dyes used in recordable media and their expected shelf life.

* Cyanine dye - the cheapest and thus most widely used dye. Looks bluish, blue-green or green depending on the foil backing. Estimatated shelf life: 1 - 5 years
* Phthalocyanine dye - very light aqua color almost transparent. Usually backed by a gold foil giving it a gold color. Estimated shelf life: 100 years.
* Azo dye - dark blue in color. Estimated shelf life: 100 years.


If you really want to store your data for a long time, look for recordable media that uses either the phthalocyanine dye or azo dye with gold foil backing. They are expensive but can hold your data up to 300 years. However by that time, CD-Rs and DVD-Rs would have gone the way of the 8 track tape.

Here is a CD-R that uses phthalocyanine dye with a 24k gold reflective layer.
Stores data for over 300 years.

END QUOTE

They then have a picture of eFilm Archival Gold discs.


Thanks!

PS: If anyone is interested, when I have them, I can post my results by brand and age (I usually wrote the date I burned the disc and, in certain cases the burner and burn speed).
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Plextor PX-716A same TLA

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LiteOn 52246S (another)
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Postby Ian on Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:04 am

That's a good question about the shelf life of blank media. I also have a lot of media that I picked up years ago and held on to it because it was hard to find or something.

The only obvious deterioration I've noticed was some older, I want to say CMC manufactured, CD-R discs. The top layer actually started to change color and yellow. Was very odd as it was stored out of the sun on a spindle with the rest of my discs.

Is Verbatim media as good as it used to be for archiving? Retail stores no longer carry the DataLife discs. Most of the stuff I've seen is made in Taiwan or India. Given, its better than the stuff that CMC, Prodisc or MBI sell under their own brands, but I still wonder how long it will last.

btw.. I'll take those Fuji TY 8X DVD+R discs if you're just going to toss em out. :wink:
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Postby VEFF on Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:26 am

Thanks for the comments Ian!

I did a lot more research since posting above.
I think I am done, since
a) I have gathered enough for my needs - I don't want to spend the entire day on it :)

I have bookmarked the links.
Ill post them below.

b) I just need something that will last reasonably long.


I have read about AZO being one of the best, if not the best, dye.
Verbatim discs still use this, but as you pointed out they no longer have Data Life (Plus).

Yes, their DL made in Singapore are no longer the norm.
I don't need any DL media at the moment, but just pointing out, like you suggested, that Verbatim's quality is subject to change as they switch factories and / or materials.

I am thinking of getting 50 Verbatim +R and 50 of their -R.
The thing is, after researching more, I have been wondering since posting whether I may be able to safely use those Fuji (TY) +R. They are shrink wrapped and not nearly as old as the others.
That being said, they are still about 1 1/2 - 2 years old, I think.
I'll have to dig up my receipt if I still have it.
I also bought two 50 packs of them, but don't recall if it was before or after the 25-disc spindles. :(

Sure, if I decide not to keep them, you can have them.
The only thing is that shipping is going to be a bundle considering the weight of 250 or so discs.

I read the shelf life of UNrecorded CD-R is 5 - 10 years (not sure if that was labeled as "conservative" (will posy my links below).
Recorded CD-R's have a shelf life was the usual number of years.
Unrecorded DVD-R shelf life was something I couldn't find any references to!!!


The Optical Storage Technology Association (OSTA) has published the following longevity estimates for recordable optical media:

UNrecorded shelf life (years)
CD-R CD-RW: 5-10
DVD±R DVD±RW: Unspecified

Manufacturers' estimated REcorded life span (years)
CD-R 50-200
CD-RW 20-100
DVD-+R 30-100
DVD-+RW 30


Here are some interesting links
http://www.audioholics.com/education/au ... -they-last
http://www.auphanonline.com/articles/vi ... le_id=3465
http://www.thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedi ... What-35882
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/303864
http://www.osta.org/technology/cdqa13.htm
http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa11.htm


QUOTE:
An unpublished report of the recently-terminated "NIST/LoC Optical Media Longevity Study" of recordable optical media stated that, after 11 months of testing: [4]

* Virtually all CD-Rs tested indicated an estimated life expectancy beyond 15 years.
* Only 47 percent of the recordable DVDs tested indicated an estimated life expectancy beyond 15 years. Some had a predicted life expectancy as short as 1.9 years.
The shelf life of DVD-R's
END QUOTE from http://www.thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedi ... What-35882

I had seen the actual article and they didn't specify brands. They were all listed "Not for public disclosure". They were probably afraid of lawsuits...
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LiteOn 52246S (another)
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Postby CowboySlim on Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:14 pm

I'm hanging on to my TurboTax output in the form of 80 card column punched cards. :D

If the IRS can't read them to audit my 1967 returns, that's there problem! :P
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Postby RJW on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:36 pm

Ian wrote:That's a good question about the shelf life of blank media. I also have a lot of media that I picked up years ago and held on to it because it was hard to find or something.

The only obvious deterioration I've noticed was some older, I want to say CMC manufactured, CD-R discs. The top layer actually started to change color and yellow. Was very odd as it was stored out of the sun on a spindle with the rest of my discs.

Is Verbatim media as good as it used to be for archiving? Retail stores no longer carry the DataLife discs. Most of the stuff I've seen is made in Taiwan or India. Given, its better than the stuff that CMC, Prodisc or MBI sell under their own brands, but I still wonder how long it will last.

Hmm not completely true.
Incase of prodisc some of there distributers seem to be able to differentiate the whole prodisc stock quite nicely.
So for prodisc (and also MBI) it's not allways true.
But Verbatim is one of the few prefered brands when it comes to buying Prodisc/MBI branded media.

The only thing I would worry about when it comes to using those FUJI TY disc's is bonding !. TY has a nasty hit and miss reputation when it comes to bonding in my case. IF the bonding is good for your disc's then the disc's should be good enough !

UNrecorded CD-R is 5 - 10 years

Probably based on the fact that there is not much older media as those 10 years in real volumes. My oldest shelflive media that I burned was 8 years and that one scanned beter as fresh stock !


2) will depend on the media. Some media goes bad allways, some faster after burning and there is some info which suggests some have a shelf life.

3) shorter as you also found yourself. 1.9 years is really optimistic. Seeing tests and real life data for some DVD-R media that says a couple of months !

5) Dye isn't everything. TY is labeled as Cyanine. Now which disc's performed best in C't (A german excellent computer magazine (Unlike the american magazines) performed best in there accelerated aging test ?
Yep TY totaly outperforming fancy gold archival media made by MAM-A.
The ones with a 300 year claime.
Also for me.
I can say the following.
My old TY's scan fine. The older ones show no significant rise.
WHen it comes to KOdak GOLD, Maxell GOLD, MITSUI/MAM-E Silver/Gold I can't say the same thing. The TY's are older and are supposdley using the inferior dye compared to the kodak and mistui disc's !)
Conclusion.
Dye alone doesn't make a good disc. And Because Ty created the CD-R they should be quite aware to do most things good.

Also another thing is that the article generalizes to much. Metal stabilized cyanine dye's are actually quite stable which is a type of cyanine dye TY uses.
Trying to make something "foolproof" only forces nature to make a better fool.
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Postby VEFF on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:53 pm

Thanks a lot RJW!

Wow, only a few months for blank DVD media in some cases?

Even if the quality media has a somewhat longer shelf life than a few months, I guess I have been fortunate:
I have recently burned a bunch of stuff on those TY Fuji's, which I found out I ordered around Dec 2004!
I haven't had any problems with them, although I haven't played many of them. (better check them all now).

I was going to buy some Verbatim DVD-R or +R.
We have a Microcenter nearby and their prices are great.

Perhaps I should try TY instead, based on your tests?
It seems like there aren't many places selling TY re-branded anymore, other than high priced stores.
Burners only:
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Plextor PX-716A TLA0304
Plextor PX-716A same TLA

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LiteOn 52246S (another)
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Postby Ian on Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:20 pm

VEFF wrote:It seems like there aren't many places selling TY re-branded anymore, other than high priced stores.


Yeah, you're going to have to buy actual TY brand discs. Rima.com has a good selection and the prices aren't that bad. Otherwise I think Newegg.com had 16x DVD-R discs last time I checked.
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Postby VEFF on Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:27 pm

Thanks Ian.

Yes, Rima, Newegg and supermediastore as well.

I just checked newegg (the item usually arrives within a day if I order in the morning) and for two different types, it seems they aren't as good anymore as Gen1 and Gen2.

The guy who got high errors with the new G3 TY even suggests MCC Verbatim.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductRe ... 6817294007

I think I'll go to Micocenterand hope they have Made in Singapore Verbatim.
I have been cooped up too long this w/e anyway. :)

I need to start dating again.
Just being friends with my ex gf isn't going to cut it in the long run.
Burners only:
Pioneer DVR-115D
Pioneer DVR-111D
Plextor PX-716A TLA0304
Plextor PX-716A same TLA

LiteOn 52246S 52X CD-RW
LiteOn 52246S (another)
LiteOn 52327S 52X CD-RW
TDK 40X USB 2.0 CD-RW
TEAC CD-W540E 40X CD-RW
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Postby Ian on Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:09 pm

VEFF wrote:The guy who got high errors with the new G3 TY even suggests MCC Verbatim.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductRe ... 6817294007


That's what happens when you do write quality testing on an NEC drive. #-o
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Postby VEFF on Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:27 pm

Ian wrote:
VEFF wrote:The guy who got high errors with the new G3 TY even suggests MCC Verbatim.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductRe ... 6817294007


That's what happens when you do write quality testing on an NEC drive. #-o


:)
I was wondering whether it might be the drive (I didn't go back and check since the weekend was withering away and I also read a similar comment for another TY media.


Just got back from Microcenter.
I bought 50 Verbatim +R and 50 Verbatim - R.
The 100 pack was cheaper ($24 instead of $14 + $14 for the two 50 packs), but I may need some -R for some burns and also figure this way I will alternate to get diversification.

I'll run some quality tests and compare them to the Fuji's I recently burned.
So long as they play (video) / are readable (data) on my DVD players and computers I'll be happy enough from that point of view.
I am really most concerned about longevity.
Burners only:
Pioneer DVR-115D
Pioneer DVR-111D
Plextor PX-716A TLA0304
Plextor PX-716A same TLA

LiteOn 52246S 52X CD-RW
LiteOn 52246S (another)
LiteOn 52327S 52X CD-RW
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Postby CowboySlim on Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:07 pm

VEFF wrote:I need to start dating again.
Just being friends with my ex gf isn't going to cut it in the long run.
Better check with MonteLDS first. He's our resident expert in dating. :)
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Postby RJW on Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:24 pm

cd-r's ->TY
BUT DVD-R/+R's - Verbatim (MCC)

Because TY's bonding is tricky, compatability is less good for the 16x stuff.

ALso TY uses azo dye on there DVD+R's.

However the point of the cd-r's suggest do not allways go with the marketing mumbo jumbo and so called scientific sites. But check multiple sources and take a look at the raw data if possible. :wink:
Trying to make something "foolproof" only forces nature to make a better fool.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:45 pm

I'm still not sure I'd recommend TY CD-Rs over Verbatim Azo anymore.... I keep running into more and more problems with TY CD-Rs, all of them minor but pointing to very poor product consistancy and weakening quality control... especially in the last 6-8 months.

Of course how it relates to LIFESPAN is another matter entirely... I would say if you're going to go with TY, get a premium brand name TY OEM, like the Maxell Pro CD-Rs.
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Postby jacktheripper on Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:57 pm

Its a real shame that out of all of this, Verbs still don't have any Watershield Gloss setups of their discs in the Canadian market (not that I've found). So for some, were still stuck with TY's on both ends, DVD and CD.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:20 pm

jacktheripper wrote:Its a real shame that out of all of this, Verbs still don't have any Watershield Gloss setups of their discs in the Canadian market (not that I've found). So for some, were still stuck with TY's on both ends, DVD and CD.


Verbatim has a new printable surface similar to TY's watershield on the way. They've already got advance samples in the USA with the various inkjet disc printer manufacturers, and I believe it's scheduled to launch in 1Q still. I don't know what pricing will be like at all though, but it'll PROBABLY be similar to TY's. No idea if the CD-Rs will be Azo or Phthalocyanine either.
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Postby jacktheripper on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:48 pm

Lets hope they par with TY.

It would be nice to not have to look down the table at MBI or Prodisc as the only alternatives for Gloss/Water printable media.

At least their going to be releasing it soon...thats what counts.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:27 am

jacktheripper wrote:Lets hope they par with TY.

It would be nice to not have to look down the table at MBI or Prodisc as the only alternatives for Gloss/Water printable media.

At least their going to be releasing it soon...thats what counts.


It's supposed to be superior to TY's, according to reports from a few companies who have received samples. TY's product actually has a lot of flaws. Also, pricing will be roughly $0.25-$0.30 more then the regular inkjet printables.
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Postby VEFF on Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:18 pm

CowboySlim wrote:
VEFF wrote:I need to start dating again.
Just being friends with my ex gf isn't going to cut it in the long run.
Better check with MonteLDS first. He's our resident expert in dating. :)


:)
Oh that brings back old memories!
I hope he's doing well.
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Postby VEFF on Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:18 pm

Well, I am test my first burn on the single layer Verbatim media.

They are made in Taiwan.
MCC 03RG20.
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Postby jacktheripper on Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:31 pm

Oy!

They better be superior for that price. Hopefully I don't have to use too many TY's before those come full circle.

Are you referring to New Verbs that address the sticky problem? I just got word that they always had the gloss discs but they were sticky and couldn't be spooled.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:11 am

jacktheripper wrote:Oy!

They better be superior for that price. Hopefully I don't have to use too many TY's before those come full circle.

Are you referring to New Verbs that address the sticky problem? I just got word that they always had the gloss discs but they were sticky and couldn't be spooled.


They've got glossy discs yes... and yes they're sticky. That's why hub printable discs aren't on spindles, and spindled discs are non-hub printable. The product I'm talking about is completely different, and water resistant. A far superior product for sure!
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Postby jacktheripper on Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:06 am

Ah, I see.

Looking forward to it then!
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Postby VEFF on Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:48 am

Question for RJW and others:

I am looking for some clarification regarding a few things relating to DVD media that were stated in this thread (see above for full details if necessary):

The 1.9 years of life mentioned in the following article quote
"Only 47 percent of the recordable DVDs tested indicated an estimated life expectancy beyond 15 years. Some had a predicted life expectancy as short as 1.9 years."

and the
"few months in some cases"
you mentioned after stating that the 1.9 years was "really optimistic":

After re-reading this thread today, the article's quote and your comment, I wanted to confirm that these lifespan figure are for still-blank DVD media (as opposed to already-burned DVD media)?

The article seems to be referring to shelf life after burning.
I am not sure which of the two your tests were referring to.

I am specifically interested in DVD-R/+R shelf life before burning, so I don't overstock every time there is a hot DVD media sale.


Thanks!
Burners only:
Pioneer DVR-115D
Pioneer DVR-111D
Plextor PX-716A TLA0304
Plextor PX-716A same TLA

LiteOn 52246S 52X CD-RW
LiteOn 52246S (another)
LiteOn 52327S 52X CD-RW
TDK 40X USB 2.0 CD-RW
TEAC CD-W540E 40X CD-RW
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Postby RJW on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:20 pm

I'm talking about after burning. There is so much info on the net found about RitekG05's, Princo's and sky disc's going bad in a less then a year.
Also quite some data of the european magazines shows the same results. However these tests were most times stability tests with UV or accelerated aging. Notice that these tests only say about stability in most cases. However for very poor disc's with specific flaws the lifetime estimates show some really creepy correct predictions ! :o

However in some cases media seems to be so terrible that it makes you wonder was ther quality controle ?, Did they fucked up the handling. Or did they actually go bad over such short time. Everything is possible. Most times a very fast degradation is caused by a serious production error.

What I do know is that some cd-r's could go bad over less then a year. Unburned or not !. The behaviour was the same. This whole problems was related to a design flaw which was at that time not to be picked up by that manufacturers quality controle. Initial fresh burns from the fresh stock started out ok. But media that screws up over time.Burned as well as unburned. In the end manufacturer changed there process slightly to overcome this uncontrolable situation.
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Postby VEFF on Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:52 pm

Thanks a lot RJW!
Yes, I avoid Princo and other questionable media.
In the old days when quality blank DVD's were $5 a disc and up (recall Pioneer DVD-R being $11 in single packs from Best Buy which was ridiculous even back then), it made sense to look at cheaper alternatives, now it doesn't pay to bother.

I should check some of my Princos from those days.
I believe they are actually readable for the most part, but I switched to quality media on a permanent basis when prices dropped a bit, so I don't have that many.

I am glad I played it safe and bought those two 50 packs of Verbatim -R and +R recently to replace my aging blanks *.
It is money well spent since it prevents me from having to worry about losing valuable and difficult to replace data.


* I very recently gave my old DVD media away to family members (other than a spindle of Fuji to be used as discardable storage for non-important short term uses).
I threw away all my old blank CD-R's, the newest of which were at least 3 1/2 years old anyway. I almost never burn CD-R's these days.
Burners only:
Pioneer DVR-115D
Pioneer DVR-111D
Plextor PX-716A TLA0304
Plextor PX-716A same TLA

LiteOn 52246S 52X CD-RW
LiteOn 52246S (another)
LiteOn 52327S 52X CD-RW
TDK 40X USB 2.0 CD-RW
TEAC CD-W540E 40X CD-RW
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CD-RW Player
 
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 9:36 pm

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