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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:04 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:And yes, there is about that much deviation between drives, and between media burns. You can see on my review for the Yamaha CD-Rs that the 3 CD-Rs I burned at the certified speed all deviated by about the same amount.
which goes to prove the point i was hinting at: that such differences are negligible (within the statistical deviations of the experimentation).
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Postby dodecahedron on Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:22 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:let's deal with the mistake first: STOP TESTING ON THE PLEXTOR, it doesn't return C2 errors as accuratly as the liteON, you may not like to admit this, but it is a fact.

why do you say that ?
fact ??? what proof do you have for that ?


ok, I made a partial mistake there. Plextor returns C2 errors properly 80% of the time when using normal software, however when using Plextools the premium drive returns roughly 100% which is on par with the LiteONs... however this is only true for the Premium drive, not the previous models.

again i have to ask, where do you get this information from, what do you base it on?
i've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Plextor's error reporting is any different / less good than the Lite-On's.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:56 am

dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:let's deal with the mistake first: STOP TESTING ON THE PLEXTOR, it doesn't return C2 errors as accuratly as the liteON, you may not like to admit this, but it is a fact.

why do you say that ?
fact ??? what proof do you have for that ?


ok, I made a partial mistake there. Plextor returns C2 errors properly 80% of the time when using normal software, however when using Plextools the premium drive returns roughly 100% which is on par with the LiteONs... however this is only true for the Premium drive, not the previous models.

again i have to ask, where do you get this information from, what do you base it on?
i've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Plextor's error reporting is any different / less good than the Lite-On's.


Not very trusting are you? LOL! no worries.
Here ya go: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Article ... 29&index=3

oh, I should mention that when I said it wasn't true for the other models, I meant the proof I found wasn't true for the other models, as I have yet to see proper testing for C2 accuracy on the older models, only on the premium.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:23 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:Not very trusting are you? LOL! no worries.
well, it's not a matter of trusting.
you made claims about the Plextor drive's error reporting capabilities, which i've never heard before, and wanted to know what you based your statements on.
as for the link you provided, i visited it but the info there doesn't mean that much to me.
when i have a little more time, i'll read the entire review to get a better picture, and also look for the Lite-On review on CDRInfo and the analogous information in that review, and compare.
also, the info on that page says nothing about dfferences in "quality" of error reporting between one testing program or another, there's no reference to PlexTools there.

like i said, i'll come back to this issue and our discussion when i've read a bit more on CDRInfo.
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Postby aviationwiz on Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:38 am

I don't even see a review or a Round-Up on CDR-Info for the Lite-On 52x, or the 48x for that matter. I see a review on the 40x but that does not say anything about C2 Reporting Accuracy.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:26 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:let's deal with the mistake first: STOP TESTING ON THE PLEXTOR, it doesn't return C2 errors as accuratly as the liteON, you may not like to admit this, but it is a fact.

dolphinius_rex wrote:ok, I made a partial mistake there. Plextor returns C2 errors properly 80% of the time when using normal software, however when using Plextools the premium drive returns roughly 100% which is on par with the LiteONs... however this is only true for the Premium drive, not the previous models.

dolphinius_rex wrote:Not very trusting are you? LOL! no worries.
Here ya go: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Article ... 29&index=3

oh, I should mention that when I said it wasn't true for the other models, I meant the proof I found wasn't true for the other models, as I have yet to see proper testing for C2 accuracy on the older models, only on the premium.

OK like i said i'll check up on CDRInfo and come back to this issue.

1. first and formost, CDRInfo do not test the drive's error reporting capabilities!!!, but the error correction capabilities!!!
as far as i'm concerned, this particular argument is ended, period.
unless you can come up with some other data to support your claim, of course. so far you haven't.

just for the sake of argument:
2. the most recent Lite-On drive CDRInfo has reviewed is the Lite-On 40125S (or maybe 40125W, seems they can't make up their minds what drive they were testing, either that or they don't have a proof-reader like Ian has :wink: ). since your'e arguing for the Lite-On in favor of the Plextor, i can't really believe your'e talking about this drive. you're probably talking about the 52246S (at least). and this was not reviewed by them. so you can hardly say they provide data for comparison.

3. in the Lite-On 40125S review there is no Error Correction Capability section (this must be something new in recent reviews only as far as i can see).

4. they did test a Sony CRX 220 (=Liteon 52246), but that was an overclock of the slower 48x24x48x drive with a hacked firmware. so you can't really say that this is a test of the Lite-On 52246S.
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Postby dhc014 on Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:30 pm

dodecahedron wrote:4. they did test a Sony CRX 220 (=Liteon 52246), but that was an overclock of the slower 48x24x48x drive with a hacked firmware. so you can't really say that this is a test of the Lite-On 52246S.


OMG, don't even bring that up again... :roll: :-?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:01 pm

dodecahedron:

I'm a little surprised that you didn't see the results for C2 accuracy on the page I linked to. Yes, the main testing is for error correction abilities, but the software also checks the C2 accuracy of the drive. This is done with special media which is damaged on purpose in order to discover how the drive will handle it. Please read the page over again a little more thouroughly.

as for results on a LiteON drive's C2 accuracy: The Sony 52 model *IS* the same hardware as the LiteON 52x24x52x drive, which is also the same hardware as the LiteON 48x24x48x drive, which ALSO the same hardware as the LiteON 48x12x48x drive (the LTR 48126S). And I see very little reason why the results would differ. The LiteON/Sony 52x drive scored 99.99% on average (usually100%) on all the tests.

I backed up my statement, and I'm sure most would agree with the results I linked to. Feel free to believe what you want to however.
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:31 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:dodecahedron:

I'm a little surprised that you didn't see the results for C2 accuracy on the page I linked to. Yes, the main testing is for error correction abilities, but the software also checks the C2 accuracy of the drive. This is done with special media which is damaged on purpose in order to discover how the drive will handle it. Please read the page over again a little more thouroughly.

yes, i understand all that.
OK, i did read the page over again more thoroughly.
the only reference to C2 error reporting is this:
The reported C2% accuracy is also high.

this is not at all clear, and not at all descriptive of how it is tested etc. i presume this references the line in the table named "C2 accuracy".
in the 52x roundup vol. 1 there is some discussion of the C2 error correction testing, but nothing about C2 reporting. like i said these tests vary somewhat from one review to the other. and in the newer review, where there is "C2 accuracy", there is no mention of what this is and how it's tested. just this very sentence i quoted. so forgive me for being rather skeptical about this piece of information.

moreover, if you insist on comparing the Plextor Premium and the Lite-On (even thought it's not really a Lite-On - read below), well in the 52x roundup vol. 1 where the Sony is tested there is no "C2 accuracy", so how can you claim to compare the two drives ????? you have this dubious "C2 accuracy" figure for the Plex only sow how can you claim that the Lite-On is better ????????

so once again i say:
you have not provided information supporting your claim that the Lite-On's error reporting capabilities are better than the Plextor's

dolphinius_rex wrote:dodecahedron:
as for results on a LiteON drive's C2 accuracy: The Sony 52 model *IS* the same hardware as the LiteON 52x24x52x drive, which is also the same hardware as the LiteON 48x24x48x drive, which ALSO the same hardware as the LiteON 48x12x48x drive (the LTR 48126S). And I see very little reason why the results would differ. The LiteON/Sony 52x drive scored 99.99% on average (usually100%) on all the tests.

OK this argument again.
contrary to what everyone is saying, i still haven't seen proof that the two drives are the same. being able to flash one drive with another drive's firmware is not proof that they have the same hardware, contrary to what you may think. if you think this is proof, fine. i do not.
buy the two drives, open them up and examine the hardware - now that's proof.

the Sony uses a different firmware, and in that particular review it wasn't even official firmware but hacked.

if you consider a 48x24x48x drive, that isn't definitely know to be indentical hardware, with a hacked firmware, considered by you to be the same drive as a Lite-On 52246S, all i can say is that it appears that i have higher standards than you when it comes to testing methodology.

let anyone who is reading our discussion decide for himself.

dolphinius_rex wrote:I backed up my statement, and I'm sure most would agree with the results I linked to. Feel free to believe what you want to however.

from my replies it is obvious that i do not agree that "you have backed up your arguments". let me recall your original statement:
dolphinius_rex wrote:let's deal with the mistake first: STOP TESTING ON THE PLEXTOR, it doesn't return C2 errors as accuratly as the liteON, you may not like to admit this, but it is a fact.

dolphinius_rex wrote:ok, I made a partial mistake there. Plextor returns C2 errors properly 80% of the time when using normal software, however when using Plextools the premium drive returns roughly 100% which is on par with the LiteONs... however this is only true for the Premium drive, not the previous models.

if you feel that you have, fine. as for me, i require somewhat more convincing apparently, i am not convinced by you yet. the "proof" you claim to have provided is'nt proof by my standards. like i said above, anyone who's reading this can decide for themselves if your "proof" is enough for them. i don't know if "most" would agree with you...but that's up to them.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:01 am

I dug around and found this link for the LiteON 52x24x52x drive: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Article ... on&index=0

look on page three, if you STILL cannot see the part that references the C2 accuracy, I suppose I could do a screen capture and circle it for you. The article also has info on how they do the testing for C2 accuracy.

Actually, I like that idea: circling the info you can't seem find on your own. So here is the plextor premium review page again, with the pertinant info circled for your convenience.

http://digitaldolphin.netfirms.com/Plex ... proof.html

so that takes care of the LiteON accuracy, the Plextor Premiums accuracy, and how the accuracy is tested. Do you have any other questions??
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:23 am

dolphinius_rex:

1. loose the attitude.
if you have a problem with someone questioning your blatant statements or asking you to back it up with proof/data, deal with it.
dolphinius_rex wrote:Actually, I like that idea: circling the info you can't seem find on your own. So here is the plextor premium review page again, with the pertinant info circled for your convenience.
Image
considering that i quoted the last sentence form the paragraph, and referenced the row in the table, it is quite obvious that i've seen the info you're pointing at.
perhaps it is you who is not reading posts thorouhly.

2. now, at long last, after a few requests, you are finaly giving some data to back up your statements.
it is you who made the statemets (that i won't quote again as i'm getting tired of it), it is up to you to provide the data to back them up. until this last post you have not.
dolphinius_rex wrote:I dug around...
the references you claim support your statements are spread over 2 reviews (the 52x roundup vol. 1 and vol. 3) and another article (Testing C2 information). you did not provide links for them, just for the Plextor review, and like i already said the info on that page did not corroborate your claims, despite what you might think. if you want to give data to back up your claims, give the complete data and don't expect others to "dig around" and look for more info that supports them.

3. now to the actual discussion at hand.
on roundup vol. 1, page 4 where the Sony CRX 220E1 (hacked, see previous post) is tested, the results are 100% on the ABEX TCD-726 test CD, 99.8% on the ABEX TCD-721R test CD.
on roundup vol. 3, page 4 where the Plextor Premium is tested, the results are 100% on the ABEX TCD-726 test CD, 99.7% on the ABEX TCD-721R test CD.
on page 4 of the Testing C2 error information essay contains info on the Lite-On 52246S, the result is 100%. however it doesn't say on which test CD this was obtained, so (to me at least, for a proper and thorough comparion) this figure is irrelevant (or maybe i should say problematic?) since it is possible that the figures on this page are for the ABEX TCD-726 test CD, then they don't give the Lite-On any edge over the Plextor. of course, if they are from testing the ABEX TCD-721R test CD, then they do say the Lite-On is better. but we don't really know , do we?

i would also like to point out that in all three results i mentioned above, it is not stated whether they are obatined using CDSpeed or EAC.

and at last i would point out again (as i have in another topic, and you agreed with me there), what is the significance of a 0.1% difference in performance? (espcecailly since we don't know anything about the statictical errors of the testing done) or for that matter what's the real meaning of a difference of 0.3% difference between the 99.7% and 100% figures ???

to conclude, it think it fair to say, and everyone would agree i believe, that both drives have excellent C2 error reporting properties (expecially if you compare with the results of some other drives in the 52x roundups vols. 1-3).
Last edited by dodecahedron on Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:43 am

dodecahedron wrote:...to conclude, it think it fair to say, and everyone would agree i believe, that both drives have excellent C2 error reporting properties (expecially if you compare with the results of some other drives in the 52x roundups vols. 1-3).


that's good enough for me :D

(look, sorry about the attitude thing, I'm just getting really tired of arguing Plextor vs. LiteON points/counter points. But you're right, I took it a bit far, and I apoligise. I'll start playing nice again, HONEST! :wink: )
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:33 am

no problem! :D
i was starting to get tired of this "argument" too.
although, i must say, it's one of the more interesting discussions i've participated on here for quite some time, definitely one of the more vigorous one :wink: :P
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Jun 22, 2003 7:05 pm

dodecahedron wrote:I was starting to get tired of this "argument" too.
although, i must say, it's one of the more interesting discussions i've participated on here for quite some time, definitely one of the more vigorous one :wink: :P


That's for sure!
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