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external enclosures

Postby X-Nemesis on Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:56 pm

thinking about making a nec3500a into an external burner. are there some enclosures that are better than others and where about can I pick them up in Canada?

I've read in some googling that it's better to go with a firewire than usb2 since it doesn't take resources from the cpu or something like that.
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Postby Vanderlow on Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:53 pm

You can also go with both. I'd wait and see what others say, but I've heard the oxford 911 chipset is good like this one.

http://www.dealsonic.com/plpmsicousb2.html
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Postby wuub on Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:52 am

I have two of these. They use the oxford 911 chipset. They are also sold under the bytecc brand at NCIX.
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Postby minchin on Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:57 pm

Definitely try to get an Oxford 911 chipset based firewire enclosure. I have found its support to be good and in general good performance. Firewire will help to support higher burning speed. If you read cdfreaks, there are posts where USB2.0 (combon firewire/usb exclosure) where the USB2 interface cannot support such high speed.
I am using a oxford911/ALI USB2 combo enclosure, it works great with 3500AG. However, I don't have any medai that burns at 16x though....
I mainly use the Firewire port. This interface even works with the NECFlasher in Windows (By Liggy/Herrie, active in the cdfreaks forum). That is an amazing tool....

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Postby dondulah on Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:05 pm

Mincin, you mentioned you have an oxfore/ali chipset in your external enclosure. Which specific brand and model do you have? Thanks, Don
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Postby uknown1234 on Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:57 am

dondulah wrote:Mincin, you mentioned you have an oxfore/ali chipset in your external enclosure. Which specific brand and model do you have? Thanks, Don


yes it would be nice to know what kind of enclosure you are using. hopefuly it can burn @16x. does it atleast burn @12x
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Postby minchin on Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:19 pm

dondulah wrote:Mincin, you mentioned you have an oxfore/ali chipset in your external enclosure. Which specific brand and model do you have? Thanks, Don


Damn, this box is kind of old and it doesn't have a logo on the box... I have it for 2+ years probably and I really don't remember the brand anymore..... Try www.cooldrives.com and they might have good info on the dual-input boxes they sell.

Sorry, can't help you more.
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external enclosure

Postby madbeaver on Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:08 pm

Look at the SNT ST-2512C combo box at http://www.snt.com.tw
This box uses Oxford911 chip and is OEMed to numerous resellers
under the name ST-2512C.
It is known has Connectland "BlackBox" in France and is an aluminium
case with fan and external PSU.
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Postby AlienTech on Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:17 am

I think it is better to buy external drives rather than converting it to an external. The NEC3500 I hear goes for under $110 external while the internal is $90. The reason have to do with the fact that it seems most external chassis are not able to sustain speeds constant enough to do a good job. How much you pay and what interface does not seem to matter. But generally one by a good manufacturer should do better.. Well You would think a 1394 one by Maxtor would be good but it performs worse than the USB2 generics I have. None of the externals I seen have been able to do 16x. Even 12x is a strain. So you have to buy one that si known to work. There is no if's about it. Off the 4, only 1 will work reliabelly @ 8x writes for me.

Best one seems to be this one. I would post my own tests but I do not know how to upload images here.
OEM Device Name : Genesys Logic, Inc. USB 2.0 IDE Adapter
Device Version : 0.02
Device ID : VEN_05E3, DEV_0702, PRT_00
http://metku.net/?sect=view&n=0&path=re ... /index_eng

Worst one seems to be this..
OEM Device Name : Myson Century, Inc. ??? (8818)
Device Version : A3.01
Device ID : VEN_04CF, DEV_8818, PRT_00
http://www.computer-parts.dk/cgi-bin/sh ... SE043.html
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:37 am

AlienTech wrote:I would post my own tests but I do not know how to upload images here.

check out this FAQ: HOWTO: Posting pictures; Linking to a specific post
Last edited by dodecahedron on Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bhairav on Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 am

AlienTech wrote:I think it is better to buy external drives rather than converting it to an external. The NEC3500 I hear goes for under $110 external while the internal is $90. The reason have to do with the fact that it seems most external chassis are not able to sustain speeds constant enough to do a good job. How much you pay and what interface does not seem to matter. But generally one by a good manufacturer should do better.. Well You would think a 1394 one by Maxtor would be good but it performs worse than the USB2 generics I have. None of the externals I seen have been able to do 16x. Even 12x is a strain. So you have to buy one that si known to work. There is no if's about it. Off the 4, only 1 will work reliabelly @ 8x writes for me.

Best one seems to be this one. I would post my own tests but I do not know how to upload images here.
OEM Device Name : Genesys Logic, Inc. USB 2.0 IDE Adapter
Device Version : 0.02
Device ID : VEN_05E3, DEV_0702, PRT_00
http://metku.net/?sect=view&n=0&path=re ... /index_eng

Worst one seems to be this..
OEM Device Name : Myson Century, Inc. ??? (8818)
Device Version : A3.01
Device ID : VEN_04CF, DEV_8818, PRT_00
http://www.computer-parts.dk/cgi-bin/sh ... SE043.html


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Postby AlienTech on Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:10 pm

Hey TH, Why the name change?. I wouldn't say I am from TA since I only followed a link to there. I been using this since before the internet, even on TC express. Otherwise someone else would steal your name.

[First, you need a web server to which you can upload pictures. If you don't have that, then you can't post pictures here.]

See thats the problem... Many free web servers dont allow you to link like this and using my personal web site would mean the pics go away when my account changes or I need the space. I thought the site might actually have a way to upload pics to itself. Guess rather than getting a graphical comparison, they have to just take my word for it :)
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Postby cfitz on Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:52 pm

Here is a post with some measurements of transfer rates to and from an after-market external enclosure. The device inside the enclosure was a hard drive rather than a DVD drive, but you can still get a feel for the interfaces' cababilities.

FireWire has no problem exceeding the ~21 MB/sec transfer rate needed for 16x recording. USB 2.0 is another matter. Its performance is slower, more variable, and not guaranteed to keep up with 16x recording.

Of course, your results may vary from mine. And just because an external enclosure can support 16x transfer rates on its own doesn't mean it will do so in a particular system. The CPU, motherboard, interface cards, drivers, etc. all come into play in determining the system's overall tranfer rate. It is safe to say, though, that you will generally have a greater chance of success with FireWire than USB 2.0.

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Postby Rich on Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:24 pm

wuub wrote:I have two of these. They use the oxford 911 chipset. They are also sold under the bytecc brand at NCIX.


I have one that looks IDENTICAL and is under the name "Micro Plus" which I bought from Compusa. It is a combo Firewire and USB 2.

It's number is very similar too: MP-320U2F

It says Oxford in the device manager but I can't find 911 anywhere. How do you tell it's the oxford 911 chipset?

I bought a Compusa USB2 and Firewire combo CARDBUS adapter at the same time I purchased the enclosure.

I'm using it with my Toshiba 2 ghz laptop.

My problem is I'm throttled as far as burn speed. I have a Plextor PX712-A in it and the best I can get is just a hair under 8x (using firewire) and as it burns the buffer is filling and emptying every few seconds. I find it to be perfectly stable at 6x and the buffer stays full without figiting at all.

So I figure it's either the enclosure or the cardbus. I'm pretty happy with 6x but it'd sure be nice to find a box to check and let it fly.

I just tried the www.micro-pls.com and they said in the driver section that it uses windows firewire drivers so no upgrade there.

:edit: Oh, one more thing. This enclosure came with 2 firewire leads and 1 usb. One of the firewire leads has the same connectors on each end and one has a tiny plug on one end. My cardbus adapter does have both sizes of plug for firewire. I've never tried but I figure that wouldn't matter?

Thanks for any leads,
Rich
Last edited by Rich on Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bhairav on Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:21 pm

AlienTech wrote:Hey TH, Why the name change?. I wouldn't say I am from TA since I only followed a link to there. I been using this since before the internet, even on TC express. Otherwise someone else would steal your name.


No particular reason..just :D
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Postby AlienTech on Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:52 am

Rich wrote:
wuub wrote:I have two of these. They use the oxford 911 chipset. They are also sold under the bytecc brand at NCIX.


I have one that looks IDENTICAL and is under the name "Micro Plus" which I bought from Compusa. It is a combo Firewire and USB 2.

It's number is very similar too: MP-320U2F

It says Oxford in the device manager but I can't find 911 anywhere. How do you tell it's the oxford 911 chipset?

I bought a Compusa USB2 and Firewire combo CARDBUS adapter at the same time I purchased the enclosure.

I'm using it with my Toshiba 2 ghz laptop.

My problem is I'm throttled as far as burn speed. I have a Plextor PX712-A in it and the best I can get is just a hair under 8x (using firewire) and as it burns the buffer is filling and emptying every few seconds. I find it to be perfectly stable at 6x and the buffer stays full without figiting at all.

So I figure it's either the enclosure or the cardbus. I'm pretty happy with 6x but it'd sure be nice to find a box to check and let it fly.

I just tried the www.micro-pls.com and they said in the driver section that it uses windows firewire drivers so no upgrade there.

:edit: Oh, one more thing. This enclosure came with 2 firewire leads and 1 usb. One of the firewire leads has the same connectors on each end and one has a tiny plug on one end. My cardbus adapter does have both sizes of plug for firewire. I've never tried but I figure that wouldn't matter?

Thanks for any leads,
Rich


You have to look at the chip :) or you can use something like SI Sandra Pro and see what the connected device is. It should tell you the name.
like
OEM Device Name : Genesys Logic, Inc. USB 2.0 IDE Adapter
Device ID : VEN_05E3, DEV_0702, PRT_00

Have you tried using the USB2? 1394 is not really faster than USB2. You need other stuff which is also fast. My PCI bus is not fast enough to use the 1394 card effectively so its slower than the worst USB2 I have. Maybe hook it up to the mother board USB port rather than the card bus.

One of the things I noticed with nero was when it gets a buffer under run, It empties the entire buffer, refills it and then restarts the burn. I can see why that is better than just continuing immediately. Then you get this whip lash thing and you get the ying yang :)
The speed graph for some of these things are weird, instead of it starting off at the highest transfer rate and dropping off in a slope, it starts off low then goes higher and then drops off which is not the real hard disk speed but the interface is causing problems, like I said its weird why it dont start off at the highest rate it can transfer at. HDtach has some that shows the transfer rates. Off the 4 I tested only the Genesys Logic graph looks normal.
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Postby Halc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:02 am

IEEE1394 is almost always faster than Hi-Speed USB (aka USB 2.0), due to better implementation, even if the theoretical speeds are in USB's favour.

From c't magazine 19/2004, best 5,25" enclosures (Firewire/USB2):

Maker / model / speed USB / speed Firewire / chipset

Raidsonic / Stardom U7-1-WB 12,7 / 15,9* / Oxford 922
MacAlly PHC-5000BC / 13,3 / 14,0 / Nec720130 + Inition 1430L
MacPower Snowline 400+ / 12,2 / 14,4 / Prolific PL-3507

* = Firewire 800 Mbit/s aka IEEE1349B, no provision for Firewire 400 Mbit/s aka IEEE1394 (not-b).

I don't know what the speed index is, but bigger is better according to the review. 7 of the tested 8 enclosures had faster Firewire than USB (and the one with slower Firewire had _really_ sub-par Firewire implementation).


Personally, I've been happy with the external LaCie d2 firewire/usb2 5,25" CDRW enclosure (it was not included in the aforementioned c't magazin tests).

It costs the same as empty enclosures (at least where I live), but comes with an LG CDRW pre-installed. It's easy to disassemble, it works well with Plextor Plextoos pro as well as kprobe (with proper drives of course).

It also has autosensing power on, meaning that it powers itself on and off when the computer is turned on / off.

Best of all, it does not have an internal fan, so it is relatively quiet (only drive noise).

It's based on the Oxford 911 chipset.
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Postby Rich on Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:22 am

AlienTech wrote:You have to look at the chip :) or you can use something like SI Sandra Pro and see what the connected device is. It should tell you the name.
like
OEM Device Name : Genesys Logic, Inc. USB 2.0 IDE Adapter
Device ID : VEN_05E3, DEV_0702, PRT_00

Have you tried using the USB2? 1394 is not really faster than USB2. You need other stuff which is also fast. My PCI bus is not fast enough to use the 1394 card effectively so its slower than the worst USB2 I have. Maybe hook it up to the mother board USB port rather than the card bus.


I first tried USB-2 and only got 4x burns. It was DVD-Addict that pointed me to the info on cdfreaks and thus persuaded me to go with firewire. I got an immediate improvement. Last night a friend told me how he read that firewire doesn't use the cpu like USB2 which is also a plus. I must admit though I haven't tried USB2 with this new gear (3 months old) and that would be worth a coaster; or maybe I'll find a useful project and burn it with USB2.

What I think however is that there is something wrong with my configuration and somehow I'm not getting the throughput I should.

Also before I used the firewire Plextools wouldn't recognize the drive.

I guess I'll have to open it up and look at the chipset.

Thankx, Rich
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Postby dondulah on Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:11 pm

Alientech,

You stated that it is better to purchase the NEC 3500 external rather than converting it and that you have seen it for $110. Where did you see the NEC 3500 external on sale for $110 at. I have seen them on ebay, but they are all converted through the Bytecc enclosure. Thanks, Don
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Postby Wesociety on Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:34 am

MadDog rebadges a USB 2.0 external version.
Last edited by Wesociety on Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AlienTech on Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:40 am

I dont know where to get them. Since finding them wont help me get one of them in my hands right now. But I saw 2 messages, 1 said he got it for less than $130 and another that said his wife asked him if she should get the $120 external version or $90 internal version. And he was thinking about it. Actually I was always a stickler for going with the factory packaged bundles. Just because I have found the other methods always rather gimmicky with some major problems hanging around the corner. You can save a lot of money by doing it yourself. So just like putting together your own system or getting one from dell.. Well if I had a lot of free time I wont go with dell.. But the last few dell's I have used have been out of this world compared to what they used to sell. See you can always call and yell at dell if something dont work.. Who you going to yell at when at when there's lines on your screen if you put it together?
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Postby bac on Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:32 pm

wesociety wrote:MadDog rebadges a USB 2.0 external version.
Look at the performance specs. That is not an nec3500. The 3500 is 16x +r, 4x DL +r. Maddog does OEM the 3500 as well, but it's more $$.
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Postby Wesociety on Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:07 pm

Whoops! You're right, I accidentally linked the MadDog NEC 2510A external version.
The 3500A USB 2.0 version should be released very soon. It was supposed to be out already according to MadDogs' press release.
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Postby wicked1 on Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:04 am

time for my input as I dont use IDE bus for any of my drives. As I have posted alot about firewire and its benefits I dont see how it couldnt keep up at 16X. I can burn to 6 different drives 6 different compilations all at the same time with no buffer underrun at full speed.My slowest drive btw is my yamaha f1 at 44x.I havent been able to get any discs for 16X recording on my pioneer 108 but it too is on firewire.I use firewire converters from caloptic and they are oxford based.
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Postby madbeaver on Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:14 pm

wicked1 wrote:...I use firewire converters from caloptic and they are oxford based.

Well that's not enough info for me :P
Are you using caloptic's FWINT133?
If not, which converter?
Are all your drives chained to the same FW port?
Is the FW port on the motherboard? which motherboard?
If not, which FW adapter or adapters?
Please be specific and TIA
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