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JVC Announces Dual Layer DVD-RW Disc Technology

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JVC Announces Dual Layer DVD-RW Disc Technology

Postby Ian on Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:18 am

Here's a surprising bit of news...

http://www.victor.co.jp/english/press/2 ... opment.pdf

Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (JVC) is pleased to announce that it has developed the world’s first single-sided, dual layer DVD-RW disc technology with a maximum storage capacity of 8.5GB. The breakthrough was made possible by the development of a high sensitive recording film, a new recording method “N-Strategy”, which enhances erasability, and a proprietary precision thin film forming technology. The new disc technology delivers 1.8 times the storage capacity of conventional, single-sided, single layer DVD-RW disc with a 4.7GB capacity. Each single-sided, dual layer DVD-RW disc can record up to 11 hours of video without turning over the disc.

JVC has also developed a facing film bonding method that enables mass production of the new discs using conventional manufacturing equipment.

The company’s new disc technology adds rewritable features to single-sided, dual layer DVD discs, which until now have been limited to write-once capability. JVC predicts that the technology will enjoy widespread use in applications such as video recorders and optical drives for both mobile and desktop PCs. The company will continue to develop feature enhancements aimed at future commercialization of the technology. JVC will forward a proposal to the DVD Forum in an effort to promote the adoption and advancement of single-sided, dual layer DVD-RW disc technology.


I bet this is really going to motivate the DVD+RW Alliance to finish up their dual layer DVD+RW technology.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:12 am

I honestly wouldn't have guessed that DVD-R would have beaten the DVD+RW alliance to this... but from what I've been hearing, the dual layer standard for DVD-R is pretty awesome compared to the DVD+R9 dual layer standard.
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Postby Ian on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:44 am

It could be due to the fact that the DVD Forum has a smaller group working on it. The DVD+RW Alliance seems to get bigger all the time, with each company having their own agenda.
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Postby jsl on Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:22 pm

Ian wrote:It could be due to the fact that the DVD Forum has a smaller group working on it. The DVD+RW Alliance seems to get bigger all the time, with each company having their own agenda.

Well, I've got the impression that it's pretty much Philips running things in the DVD+RW Alliance and they seem to be far more effective in doing so than the DVD forum. BTW remember that Pioneer rushed out an announcement of DVD-R DL on the same day as Philips/MKM announced DVD+R DL and we have yet to see any DVD-R DL media available...
It would surprise me if DVD-RW DL actually reaches the market before DVD+RW DL.

dolphinius_rex wrote:but from what I've been hearing, the dual layer standard for DVD-R is pretty awesome compared to the DVD+R9 dual layer standard.

Let me guess: That person works for Pioneer ;) ...because I don't see what that possibly could be.
Last edited by jsl on Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Boba_Fett on Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:29 pm

I just hope it won't cost 2x the price of DVD+R DL (approx. analogy of the price difference between DVD-+R and DVD-+RW). Paying around $20 for one of these would be ludicrous...
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Postby jberry on Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:48 pm

let's just see -R DL first though
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Postby RJW on Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:14 pm

Well Philips R&D is really good but the problem is how to bring a product/technology to the market and specially how to sell there products.

Let's make things better....
( #-o )

People don't forget that Philips is the companny who is supposed to be responsible for something like 50% of all patents filled by the Dutch market last year.

About -R. I'm not so sure how revolutionary that standard is.
For the folks who don't know the standard for Dual Layer recordables is much more strict and demanding as normal dual layer pressed media.
So actually if there wasn't such a thing as bad software support it should work just as good or better. So I wonder is Pioneers standard even higher.
(Great for MCC because they would really have another monopoly or would RICOH/RITEK together enter the -R market ?) Or is it
just marketing. I guess we will find out soon when the media is there.
But seeing how the +R standard was build up I don't expect -R to behave any better as +R dual layer when it comes to older drives.

Let me say this a lot of people hope that -R dual layer will let them use dual layer disc's on there PS2.
Well let me say the followeing PS2 sucks when it comes to dual layer.
Because SONY's added very limited support for pressed dual layer very late. Sony prefers 2 singles disc's over one dual layer disc's. Also see the problems that there were with dual layer games.
Next people want these so they can burn cheap back ups. Hmmm haven't we learned from the early days. That PS2's are picky and with dual layer things will restart so this probally means that the disc's will need to be of very high quality. Quality comes at a price.
So this means that folks will end up with expensive MCC/verbatim manufacturerd media the first months.
Hmm let's see how many dual layer disc's does the PS2 have ?
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GT4 and a few more japanese releases. But not that much.

Hmm Xenosaga is sold these days as a budget game.
MGS 2 Substance also is sold as a budget game.
The market for japanese imports is small.

So is GT4 alone the game that causes a supposed large demand in Europe and America. Well I have my doubts.
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Just wondering ...

Postby kingofheck on Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:11 pm

It's a little bit off-topic, but I was wondering if anyone
ever came out with double-sided DVD+/-R's?
(Or double-sided, dual-layer DVD+/-R's).

Just curious ... :-?
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Postby Scour on Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:21 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:I honestly wouldn't have guessed that DVD-R would have beaten the DVD+RW alliance to this... but from what I've been hearing, the dual layer standard for DVD-R is pretty awesome compared to the DVD+R9 dual layer standard.


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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:50 pm

RJW wrote:So is GT4 alone the game that causes a supposed large demand in Europe and America. Well I have my doubts.


You might be surprised... I've had more then one company already approach me asking for 1,000pcs+ DVD-R9 media for making "backups" of this one game alone :o

As for the format itself, it looks like it is built to be easier to improve on, like DVD+R is. Also, it has automatic setting of the booktype to DVD-R, there *IS* no DVD-R DL booktype even, so compatability for that reason will be good, but if the laser can't read it, it still won't be improved.
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Postby alexnoe on Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:38 pm

Well, I've got the impression that it's pretty much Philips running things in the DVD+RW Alliance and they seem to be far more effective in doing so than the DVD forum. BTW remember that Pioneer rushed out an announcement of DVD-R DL on the same day as Philips/MKM announced DVD+R DL and we have yet to see any DVD-R DL media available...
Maybe they did never imagine that the DVD+Alliance could announce something which is SOOOO idiotic. They didn't even take the time to think about booktypes...if you had ever made something like a bitsetting app, you'd know *how* idiotic it is what those d0rks did.
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Postby aviationwiz on Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:03 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
RJW wrote:So is GT4 alone the game that causes a supposed large demand in Europe and America. Well I have my doubts.


You might be surprised... I've had more then one company already approach me asking for 1,000pcs+ DVD-R9 media for making "backups" of this one game alone :o


Was hoxlund an employee of this "company"? Interesting though.
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Postby Boba_Fett on Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:30 pm

RJW wrote:Let me say this a lot of people hope that -R dual layer will let them use dual layer disc's on there PS2.
Well let me say the followeing PS2 sucks when it comes to dual layer.
Because SONY's added very limited support for pressed dual layer very late. Sony prefers 2 singles disc's over one dual layer disc's. Also see the problems that there were with dual layer games.
Next people want these so they can burn cheap back ups. Hmmm haven't we learned from the early days. That PS2's are picky and with dual layer things will restart so this probally means that the disc's will need to be of very high quality. Quality comes at a price.
So this means that folks will end up with expensive MCC/verbatim manufacturerd media the first months.
Hmm let's see how many dual layer disc's does the PS2 have ?
Xenosaga (US/JAPAN)
Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance.
GT4 and a few more japanese releases. But not that much.

Hmm Xenosaga is sold these days as a budget game.
MGS 2 Substance also is sold as a budget game.
The market for japanese imports is small.

So is GT4 alone the game that causes a supposed large demand in Europe and America. Well I have my doubts.


The one and only reason dual layer backups do not work (excluding quality/recoginition problems) is because all PS2 DVD-9 games (add God of War to your list) are pressed in PTP (Parrallel Track Path). We can currently only write to dual layer media in OTP mode (Opposite Track Path), which is what DVD-9 movies use (and would explain why DVD-9 movie backups work in the PS2). Apparently a new modchip (DMS4 with the latest Toxic Bios) allows the PS2 to read OTP DVD-9 backups, but I have yet to see any proof.

While certain PS2 versions have had a notorious time with burnt (and original) media, my v7 handles DVD+R DL movies flawlessly, along with various DVD-R and DVD+R backups :) My launch v1 PS2 is another story...
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Postby diskdocx on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:13 pm

Boba_Fett wrote:
RJW wrote:Let me say this a lot of people hope that -R dual layer will let them use dual layer disc's on there PS2.
Well let me say the followeing PS2 sucks when it comes to dual layer.
Because SONY's added very limited support for pressed dual layer very late. Sony prefers 2 singles disc's over one dual layer disc's. Also see the problems that there were with dual layer games.
Next people want these so they can burn cheap back ups. Hmmm haven't we learned from the early days. That PS2's are picky and with dual layer things will restart so this probally means that the disc's will need to be of very high quality. Quality comes at a price.
So this means that folks will end up with expensive MCC/verbatim manufacturerd media the first months.
Hmm let's see how many dual layer disc's does the PS2 have ?
Xenosaga (US/JAPAN)
Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance.
GT4 and a few more japanese releases. But not that much.

Hmm Xenosaga is sold these days as a budget game.
MGS 2 Substance also is sold as a budget game.
The market for japanese imports is small.

So is GT4 alone the game that causes a supposed large demand in Europe and America. Well I have my doubts.


The one and only reason dual layer backups do not work (excluding quality/recoginition problems) is because all PS2 DVD-9 games (add God of War to your list) are pressed in PTP (Parrallel Track Path). We can currently only write to dual layer media in OTP mode (Opposite Track Path), which is what DVD-9 movies use (and would explain why DVD-9 movie backups work in the PS2). Apparently a new modchip (DMS4 with the latest Toxic Bios) allows the PS2 to read OTP DVD-9 backups, but I have yet to see any proof.

While certain PS2 versions have had a notorious time with burnt (and original) media, my v7 handles DVD+R DL movies flawlessly, along with various DVD-R and DVD+R backups :) My launch v1 PS2 is another story...


I think is a bit more complicated yet than this. My understanding is that only God of War and GT4 are pressed as PTP DL DVD (both recent first party Sony releases BTW). Several older DL DVD including Xenosaga have been duplicated and played successfully. So the PS2 can read OTP burned games - provided the original was OTP.

I believe the problem is that a PTP game cannot be burned as an OTP - the data on the second layer would be a mirror image of the original second layer. It could not be a copy protection issue, as pressed backups of GT4 work fine on a modded PS2. I don't believe it is an issue of reading OTP DL DVD either, as in that case burned movies and Xenosaga should not work. Yes, it does depend on the version of your PS2 - I too have a v7, which also runs DVD-RW and DVD+RW just fine thank you very much - but some people with older PS2 have troubles even getting an original copy of GT4 to work.

I would wonder how a chip could solve this problem, as I can't see that it could change how the PS2 recognizes PTP vs OTP discs - my thought would be that a program which could take the second layer of a PTP disc, create a mirror image that could be burned as OTP, which in theory should place the data in the same location as if the disc was burned PTP, would perhaps work?

Anyway, back to topic - is there any burner that supports DL RW media yet available (I know that no media yet exists, but for the future)? Otherwise it would mean replacing yet another burner...
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Postby Boba_Fett on Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:10 am

You are probably thinking of the infamous "scene release" of Xenosaga being split into two DVD-5s. As for a Xenosaga DVD+R DL backup working, it is possible (A few of my PS2 buddys have got a bit into the game before it froze on them) but once you get to where data needs to be accessed on Layer 1 (the second layer) the PS2 would be wholly confused and quit right there. I have yet to see real proof of a DVD+R DL game backup fully working (DVD-9 "silver" PS2 backups are confirmed working though... I need to get one of those).
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Postby Scour on Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:27 am

alexnoe wrote:DVD-R DL will have MultiSession capability


Thanks :)
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