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8x media on 4x burner?

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8x media on 4x burner?

Postby cerb76 on Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:03 pm

Hello,
very simple question which flashed in my mind reading a comment on a different topic.

- Will 8x rated media burn on 4x DVD writers (Nec 1300A)? [I mean at 4x of course]
- Will the quality be degraded?
- Is it best to stick to 4x media?
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Postby RJW on Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:27 pm

A It depends on the media some will and some will not.
B Quality also depends some media is good supported and for others the support or actuall quality of the media is not that great.
C Also a tricky question I would recommend 8x TY media over 4x crappy infosmart media. So it's tricky.
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Postby cerb76 on Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:51 pm

ok,
that's a surprise to me to hear that some 8x media might not be good for a 4x burner. In the CDR case there was no problem at all with higher rating media (never had or heard any problem).
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Postby RJW on Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:43 pm

Well the problem is that there is no optimal strategy.
Now 90% of the drive manufacturers out there use only allmost only MID and revision code to decide to the Strategy.
Plextor Px-716 has autostrategy which can fine tune.
Benq and Philips drives however can use the extra data that is on the media to decide what strategy to use. Note this works best for +R media. Support of the extra information on -R media seems to be more limited.

Now in your case NEC did add quite some strategies for 8x media still there is media which isn't in the firmware.
If it isn't in the firmware 2 things can happen.
A drive decides not to burn the media at all.
B drive will use generic strategy which might mean lower speed and/or less good quality.

If your interested then I will try to see if I can find out which 8x media works good. It might take some time.

Probally the 8x Taiyo Yuden (Real not the crappy hongkong imitations !) media will work with it. But I could see what else should work and what doesn't.
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Postby cerb76 on Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:02 pm

I still don't see one thing (which was really my question), i.e. why should all your reasoning only apply to 8x (and not in general)?

All what you said (about firmware not having strategy for all media)should be perfectly valid at any writing speed. What I mean: if a brand is unkwown to the firmware will be equally unkown for 4x and 8x.
And I am ready to accept that and to apply new firmware as is gets available (as the Herry one).

But I still don't understand is:
- Assuming you have in the firmware a strategy for a Ritek (random name) at 4x, if I put on the DVDRW a Ritek 8x, will it be able just to write at 4x with the strategy written for older disks? Will newer disks for the same brand be usable with older writing strategies?

- in the extreme, if this was not possible, how would people get suitable disks in 1 year time? Already nowadys many suppliers limit their discs to 8x. In 1 year's time, 4x DVD-R might be really a rarity.
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Postby cerb76 on Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:05 pm

RJW wrote:
Now in your case NEC did add quite some strategies for 8x media still there is media which isn't in the firmware.


- Is there any program to see which 8x media is supported?
I am using the firmware 1.0C (unofficial Herry latest version)
- If a particular media is supported 4x, will the equivalent 8x discs work as well (backwards compatibility of new media) on the NEC?
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Postby Jim on Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:28 pm

Faster media, even if from the same disc manufacturer, have different dyes that require their own strategy.

I've tried Maxell DVD-R 8X, TY DVD+-R 8X, Sony DVD-R 8X without any problems in my Pioneer DVR-106D. The Maxell and Sony were made in japan.

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Postby RJW on Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:22 pm

I'm going to asnwer the stuff very short because there are much questions.
and I have little time. If you want to know more do some research yourself or ask for a more complete answer.
- Is there any program to see which 8x media is supported?
I am using the firmware 1.0C (unofficial Herry latest version)
- If a particular media is supported 4x, will the equivalent 8x discs work as well (backwards compatibility of new media) on the NEC?


1 Yes there is don't know the name but you probally can found it through cdfreaks board. They also have probally a listing of what the firmware supports.

2 Nope different MID is different disc in the NEC case. It needs to have the data in the firmware to use optimum strategy for a disc. In other case it might not burn or it will use generic strategy.
I still don't see one thing (which was really my question), i.e. why should all your reasoning only apply to 8x (and not in general)?

It does apply in general 16x media can be not supported on 8x drives.
What I ment is when the drive was released there was only 4x media now newer media has arrived 8x,16x. While most 4x media was supported because it was there in the drive life cycle NEC had to support it. WHen 8x media was launche however NEC allready had newer drives now it's a question how good they did support the 8x media that came available later. Some compannies do release new firmwares to solve the problems but other compannies don't care. (In which you will end up with a 4x burner that can not burn any media annymore when there is no 4x media arround !. Last thing is not the case with the NEC !)
Also hacked firmwares might be a option.
All what you said (about firmware not having strategy for all media)should be perfectly valid at any writing speed. What I mean: if a brand is unkwown to the firmware will be equally unkown for 4x and 8x.
And I am ready to accept that and to apply new firmware as is gets available (as the Herry one).

I think allready explained above. Why 4x media is probally better supported officially that is. If not then let me know.

But I still don't understand is:
- Assuming you have in the firmware a strategy for a Ritek (random name) at 4x, if I put on the DVDRW a Ritek 8x, will it be able just to write at 4x with the strategy written for older disks? Will newer disks for the same brand be usable with older writing strategies?

Nope. Infact in the old days there were even situations that the drives needed updates for 4x media because with the 2x firmware the media could actually destroy the drive. Like I said most drives decide on MID and each generation has a different mid.
- in the extreme, if this was not possible, how would people get suitable disks in 1 year time? Already nowadys many suppliers limit their discs to 8x. In 1 year's time, 4x DVD-R might be really a rarity.

In the extreem case You need to get a new drive .TOSHIBA slimline 4x model is a drive which doesn't seem to support 8x media !! When european magazines asked if Toshiba would add support for 8x media they said it's allready discontiinued so we probally don't do it and Toshiba suggested that people would just need to buy a new drive if they wanted to burn 8x media.
For me this is a reason to never buy something from Toshiba.
So that shows how bad compannies can be. NEC did add officially support for some 8x media. So be happy that NEC ain't as bad as Toshiba.
Also for NEC there is good community (read hacked firmwares) support so your a bit more safe.

If things are (Still) unclear let me know. I might have screwed up some typeing now and then but I don't have time to look this posting over at the moment. Also if some other persons wants to explain or help please do so.
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Postby cerb76 on Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:57 pm

Ok and thank you. =D>
That's much clearer now. I did not know that different dies in higher rated disks might have problems at lower speeds.
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Postby gm2015 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:42 pm

I just bought Sony 8X DVD-Rs from Staples, and when I try to record on them on my NEC 1300A, I get this response:


Illegal disc
NEC DVD_RW ND 1300A
Could not perform start of Disc-at-once
Burn process failed at 2.4x (3,324 KB/s)

I also get this message when trying to burn at other speeds (2x, 1x and "maximum").

I have tried Maxell’s 8x media with my NEC and was able to burn at 2x only.
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Postby Alektron on Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:09 pm

The answer may be in the 1300A manual. It says that it supports 4x speed for DVD-R. It seems that the firmware in your drive does not recognize the ID code for Sony 8x DVD-R media.

This is similar to my old Liteon 411S (flashed to 811S). It would read/write 8x Prodisc DVD+R, but wouldn't recognize 16x DVD+R because the firmware wasn't available for that. (I tried to customize the firmware, and that didn't help). Fortunately, my burning software was able to burn at 2.4x, so the media was still salvageable. What burning software are you using? The inability to burn at 2.4x could be a restriction imposed by either the NEC firmware or the burning application; I can't be sure.

Maybe due to the previous strategy of NEC firmware and hardware engineers, they decided to allow unrecognized (ie. 8x or 16x) Maxell DVDs default to a slower speed burn, while Sony DVDs were rejected. This might be due to quality expectations.

RJW has a very good informative explanation, also.

You should give the DVD-Rs to a friend, and buy 4x media (cheaper). Or, upgrade your burner.
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Postby gm2015 on Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:39 pm

Thanks.

I've gone through RJW's post and I'm going to go to the CDfreaks.com to find more information.

1) Knowing that there are companies like Toshiba that would sell you a drive that, in effect, becomes obsolete not long after you buy it, is absolutely disgraceful. If I bought a drive like this, I would write a letter to the Consumer Protection Division of the Attorney General’s office in my home state, and the home state of the Toshiba’s US corporate offices (as well as the computer company that sold it to me).

2) I have looked at NEC’s media list, and know that Sony is not on it. Then again, Fuji wasn’t on it, and I was able to burn to Fuji TY 4x DVD-R’s, so I assumed that I would be able to do it with Sony (maybe not with great results, but it was such a good deal, that I figured I’d give them a try). My local CVS pharmacy still sells Fuji TY 4x DVD-R’s in 3 packs, so I bought two of them tonight, figuring that they won’t be around much longer (and I know that they’re worked for me already). I know that I can also use the Maxell’s, if only at 2x now that they have the 8x’s in the stores.

I’ve heard some less than favorable things about the latest batch of Fuji made-in-Japan TY’s, so I’m a little leary of them. But I did see a good deal in an FYE store for Fuji TY DVD+R’s, so I have a question for you. Even though Fuji is not on the NEC media list, I have been able to burn to them in the past, so do you think that there’s a chance that the new Fuji 8xs will work with the NEC at the lower speeds (4x, 2x and 1x)?

3) I’ve also gone to NEC’s website to download the latest firmware, but it won’t work on my computer. That’s because Gateways (as well as other brands) come with the OEM version, and this download doesn’t apply. There is a notice saying that anyone needing a firmware update for the OEM versions has to contact the company that sold them their computer. I haven’t contacted Gateway yet, but I assume this means that I’m going to have to pay Gateway for the privilege of updating my firmware. Do you know if this would be the case?
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Postby RJW on Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:39 am

Hmm will have to verify. However I think FUJI (TAIYO YUDEN) 8x DVD+R will burn ( I think even at 4x ) with the NEC N1300. Because it's TAIYO YUDEN. (japanese companny and the the reputation of TY.)
Give me a few days and I know for sure.

N-1300 can be crossflashed if I'm right with the right tools you should be able to flash the NEC firmware on the gateway version. If I'm right that is.
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Postby gm2015 on Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:41 pm

Thanks, RJW.

Last night, I decided to call Gateway tech support about this and the rep I spoke with didn’t know much about the compatibility issue, so she asked her boss about it. She said that he told her that I would have to burn to 4x discs only, but that I should always be able to find them. When I mentioned to her that they were starting to be replaced in the stores by the 8xs, she said that I could always get them online, and mentioned Ebay.

I didn’t get a chance to mention to her that I have been able to burn the Maxell 8x (if only at 2x), so it does seem as though, at least with Maxell, I am not limited to 4x discs completely.

I asked her about a firmware upgrade. NEC’s website provides an update, but it doesn’t apply to OEM versions sold by companies like Gateway and HP (see below for the full quote). She said that Gateway would not provide me with any firmware update, and admitted that if I did have trouble finding compatible discs, I would have to get myself a new burner.

I told her that if that really was the case, I would not be happy about this, and would start writing letters to the Attorney General’s office (my home state, and South Dakota, where Gateway is based). Once before, I got the South Dakota AG’s office involved because Gateway’s sales people told me one thing too many that turned out not to be true. The AG’s office was quite helpful that time, and I was able to quickly resolve the problem.

I find it hard to believe that a serious compatibility problem could arise just a year or two after buying a piece of hardware like this. I’m fairly new to DVD burning, so I may just be mistaken about this. But if I really do have a problem, I will say something about it.

I’ll be interested to know about the Fuji 8xs. As far as flashing the NEC firmware, I started looking into that last night as well.

Here’s the notice from the NEC website about OEM firmware:
(“The NEC firmware upgrade below should not be used with external USB / FireWire drives or with OEM drives from HP, DELL, Medion, Fujitsu, Siemens, Gateway, or any other OEM manufacturer. If you wish to update the firmware on an OEM drive, please contact the dealer or manufacturer.”)
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Postby gm2015 on Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:29 pm

Here is what the NEC 1300A manual says about compatible media:


2.3.3 DVD WRITABLE MEDIA

a) DVD-R Media (4x/2x, 4.7GB For General DISC)
Mitsubishi (Verbatim), Taiyo-Yuden, PVC, Fuji Film, Ritek

b) DVD-RW Media (2x/1x)
JVC, Pioneer, Mitsubishi (Verbatim), TDK

c) DVD+R Media (4x/2.4x)
RICOH, Mitsubishi (Verbatim), Taiyo-Yuden, Sony

d) DVD+RW Media (2.4x)
RICOH, Mitsubishi (Verbatim), TDK

e) DVD-RW/+RW Rewrite
1000 times

So what I said in my previous post about Fuji not being on the DVD-R list was wrong. That is in the manual, but Fuji's not in the NEC 1300A media list <http://www.de.nec.de/software/1053_Medialist_ND-1300A.pdf>

Maxell is not on the DVD-R list in the NEC manual, but it is in the media list.

The NEC Media List contradicts what's in the manual, by listing Maxell DVD+R (which is not in the manual).

Alektron:

I was looking through your previous post, and realized that I didn't answer one of your questions. I use Nero 6.6.0.6 to burn my DVDRs.
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Postby RJW on Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:22 pm

gm2015 wrote:Here is what the NEC 1300A manual says about compatible media:



So what I said in my previous post about Fuji not being on the DVD-R list was wrong. That is in the manual, but Fuji's not in the NEC 1300A media list <http://www.de.nec.de/software/1053_Medialist_ND-1300A.pdf>

The media is listed. It says media manufactured by TY in the case of FUJI's disc's it will work because the drive only sees TY MID code. It can not see if it's FUJI or That's (TY home brand) or plextor TY.
However point if the firmware lists the 8x code.

Okay.
For NEC's 1.09 firmware. I have some answers. Point is I don't know what Gateway does.

However NEC's 1.09 firmware supports for 8x+R (speed is not known):
recommended ?:

SONY D11, MAXELL002,PHILIPS081,TDK002(should work.)
MCC003, RICOHJPNR02,YUDEN000T02(Guaranteed and 4x it seems)

Limited supported.
CMCMAGE01,RITEKR03

8x -R recommended ?
TYG02(guaranteed 4x)
SONY08D1,MXL RG03, FUJIFILM03 (should work)
Limited
RITEKG05, TDK TTG02,

For gateway I can not get the info it seems.
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Postby RJW on Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:11 pm

What's the current firmwate your usseing.
I assume it's. 1.72 (released at 8/3/2004. Which seems gateway's last released ifrmware.)
http://support.gateway.com/support/driv ... iter&st=kw

If yours is older then flashing might help(NEC's own 1.09 was released in januari it seems so it's possible that it has the support unless gateway really screwed things up and is slow)
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Postby Alektron on Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:29 pm

I suggest just giving up and buy a 16x speed burner of a brand with good support like Plextor, or something like that. My previous DVD writer was 4x that I firmware cross-flashed to 8x. Maybe it's time for you to upgrade too, and not to waste anymore time on this issue, when there are a lot of other things you could be doing.
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Postby gm2015 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:05 pm

RJW:

I checked yesterday, and the firmware is 1.70. Thanks for the link. You know more about this than Gateway's own tech support, which told me Friday night that there was no firmware update.

I got my computer back in March of 2004, so this update, coming in August, 2004, should be useful.
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Postby RJW on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:13 pm

It's not the first that happens that I know more as the companny folks themselves.
So did it solve any problems ?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:44 pm

RJW wrote:It's not the first that happens that I know more as the companny folks themselves.
So did it solve any problems ?


You should start your own tech support line! only $4.99/minute :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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Postby fluppi99 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:03 pm

Hi,

the original NEC 1300a firmware 1.0b supports the following 8x media:

DVD + R

Mitsubishi/ Verbatim 8x*
SONY 8x*
MAXELL 8x*
PHILIPS 8x*
TDK 8x*
Ricoh 8x*
YUDEN 8X*

8x PHILIPS
8x RITEK (NEW 8X)
8x NANYA
8x BeALL
8x OPTODISC
8x DAXON(ACER)
8x PROMEDIA
8x Longten
8x NANYA
8x GIGASTRAGE
8x INTER MEDIA

DVD-R

YUDEN 8x*
SONY 8X*
MAXELL 8x*
FUJI 8x*

RITEK 8X

*supported and recommended media


short: Buy premium discs and you won´t have problems...
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Postby gm2015 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:15 pm

RJW:

This is what Gateway says about firmware update 1.72 (I have 1.70):

This is the firmware update 1.72 for the NEC DVD-RW/+RW drive, part number 5502922. The firmware should be flashed if:

1. You have an NEC DVD-RW/+RW drive, part number 5502922.

2. You are experiencing problems reading the Works Suite 2004 DVD.

3. A Gateway technician has told you to flash or re-flash the computer.

After reading this, I decided not to install it just yet. I'm going to give Gateway support another try and ask them specifically about the 1.72 update and see what they say.

If they tell me that the 1.72 doesn't address the compatibility issue, then I'll ask them if they are working on one. Maybe this time, I will actually speak with a tech rep who has an idea of what Gateway is up to. From what I read somewhere, there's a limited number of times you can flash your firmwear, so until I know more about this one, I hold off.

I do feel a little better knowing that they do update the firmware from time to time. Thanks, you've been a lot more helpful than Gateway.


fluppi99:

The reason why I became a interested in this to begin with is that I bought Maxell 8x DVD-R and was onyl able to burn to it at 2x. I also bought Sony 8x DVD-R and wasn't able to burn to it at all (I got a message about an "illegal disc").

I do have the NEC manual now and the version that I have says you can burn to Sony 4x DVD+R, but Sony 4x DVD-R is not listed.
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Postby fluppi99 on Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:25 am

These compatibility and recommended media lists were updated along with the firmware.

You could flash the original NEC bios.

flashing is at your own risk!

dl the firmware from Herrie´s site:

http://herrie.rpc1.org/downloads/1x00/1 ... 0cf-t2.rar

The archive contains the firmware (bin) and a dosflasher, I recommend to use. So you need a dos bootdisc. Boot into real dos and use the dos flasher to transform your "not supported gateway drive" into a high-tech NEC.

This firmware should support your media ->Sony and Maxell 8x DVD-R are on the recommended media list, so quality should be fine (and speed 4x).

flashing is at your own risk!

F.

Edit: The linked firmware has some nice extra stuff like bitsetting, region code can be changed as often as you like and additional media support for crap media (don´t see the fun here).
After "transforming" your drive into NEC 1300, you could flash every official NEC bios you like (and use the NEC windows flasher).
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Postby gm2015 on Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:14 am

Thanks for the link.
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