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NEC 3500 produces PIF-spikes?

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NEC 3500 produces PIF-spikes?

Postby Gabe on Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:08 pm

Remarks:

For the scans I used a LiteOn SOHW 1653S with KProbe 2.42

Not every tested DVD was absoluty full , but that doesn´t matter because the NEC produced the spikes not at the end of the DVDs.

1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD+R:RICOHJPN-R02-003]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc Type : [DVD+R]
Manufacturer ID : [RICOHJPN]
Manufacturer Name : [Ricoh Company Ltd.]
Media Type ID : [R02]
Product Revision : [003]
Disc Application Code : [General Purpose]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2.4x , 4x , 6x-8x]
Blank Disc Capacity : [Not Supported By Method 2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


NEC 3500AG FW 2.19 @12x:

Image


LiteOn SOHW 1653S CS0C

Image


LG GSA 4163A A103 @12x

Image


Pioneer DVR MCC @8x

Image


LG GSA 4082 A208 @8x

Image

NEC produces PIF max. 7, Pioneer 3, other burners max. 2.
Don´t have at this time more of these DVDs , else I made a test with 8x with the NEC.



2. Sony DVD-R 8x 4,7GB

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD-R:SONY08D1]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc & Book Type : [DVD-R] - [DVD-R]
Manufacturer Name : [Sony Recording Media Co.]
Manufacturer ID : [SONY08D1]
Blank Disc Capacity : [2,298,496 Sectors = 4,489.3MB = 4.38GB (4.71GB)]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2x , 4x]
[6x And Higher Might Not Always Be Detectable]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



NEC 3500AG FW 2.19 @16x:

Image


NEC 3500AG FW 2.TC @12x:

Image


NEC 3500AG FW 2.TC @8x:

Image


LiteOn SOHW 1653S CS0C

Image


LG GSA 4163A A103 @12x

Image


Pioneer DVR MCC @8x

Image


LG GSA 4082 A208 @8x

Image


Only @8x the NEC produces low PIF max 2.At higher speeds the NEC produced max. 10 and max. 12 PIF. The LiteOn produces max. 3, other burners max. 2.



3. Sony DVD+R 8x 4,7GB


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD+R:SONY-D11-000]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc & Book Type : [DVD+R] - [DVD+R]
Manufacturer Name : [Sony Recording Media Co.]
Manufacturer ID : [SONY]
Media Type ID : [D11]
Product Revision : [Not Specified]
Blank Disc Capacity : [2,295,104 Sectors = 4,482.6MB = 4.38GB (4.70GB)]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2.4x , 4x , 6x-8x]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



NEC 3500AG FW 2.19 @12x:

[img=http://img260.echo.cx/img260/3390/13sonydvdr8x12xnec35002195tb.th.png]


NEC 3500AG FW 2.TC @8x:

Image


LiteOn SOHW 1653S CSJT @8x

Image


LG GSA 4163A A103 @12x

Image


Pioneer DVR MCC @8x

Image


LG GSA 4082 A208 @8x

Image


Here are PIF-spikes max. 7 @8x-burn, too, also with FW 2.TC. LG produced max. 4 PIF, other drives max. 3 PIF.

Conclusion: I´m a little disappointed with from NEC. I don´t know whether I make more tests, because I´ll maybe get those ugly PIF-spikes, that can produce problems with a DVD-Player.

I don´t want to say that the NEC is a bad drive, but in my opinion it´s not so good like the LG GSA 4163A.

The NEC overspeed more media, that´s right. But if you burn some media only @8x it tooks ca. 9.40 Min for 4480MB, the LG 4163A and Pioneer MCC took ca. 8.00 Min. With 12x-burn on the Ricoh´s the LG is considerably better than the NEC.
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Postby Phoenix '97 on Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:43 pm

Could that be from the NEC's pausing several times throughout the disc to analyse how it's writing and change strategies if necessary? (I forgot what this was called)
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Postby Gabe on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:00 pm

Phoenix '97 wrote:Could that be from the NEC's pausing several times throughout the disc to analyse how it's writing and change strategies if necessary? (I forgot what this was called)


You think of the running OPC?

I don´t think that´s the reason for those spikes because OPC is also working at lower speeds
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Postby Ian on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:10 pm

I've seen those spikes too and most often on DVD+R discs recorded at 16x. I really haven't been too concerned since the discs usually read fine and test okay with other software/drives.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:56 pm

I wouldn't be concerned.... besides, when scanning with a LiteON you have to take the results with a grain of salt :wink:
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Postby Ian on Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:22 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:I wouldn't be concerned.... besides, when scanning with a LiteON you have to take the results with a grain of salt :wink:


Yeah, but the spikes are still a little surprising considering Lite-On drives are otherwise very forgiving when it comes to writing quality.
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Postby Scour on Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:30 pm

Hello!

After reading this I don´t be sure, buy a NEC or get again a LG :-?
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Postby RJW on Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:11 pm

Or you could avoid it and get a Benq (better tools,better write quality in general. )
If you think it looks ugly (some people think benq looks ugly) then you could choose it's sister from Philips (which other people find even more ugly)

BUt to get to the topic.
The LG drives is known for a to high jitter on most media which is also problematic. That's why it performs good on Lite On's and not so good on
the profesional systems or if you look at all parameters like cdrlabs review did. The profesional systems seem to be more senstive for high jitter so it will give much more errors.

The NEC performance doesn't look that nice on the lite-on I agree. But it are only errors on a Lite On drive. To little info to say something about a overall performance.
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Postby Scour on Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:38 pm

Hello!

I think I have some problems with Benq:

1. I prefer (and have a big stock) of DVD-R. High quality media (TY, MCC, Sony) and lower quality (Infosmart, Optodisc)

2. I wrote in an other thread that Benq have ugly drives. I would prefer nice looking Philips-drives, but the FW support from Philips is not so good like Benq.

My LG 4082 works nice for me all the time, even with low-quality-media I had no problem to play a movie with 4488MB on my DVD-Player.

Maybe I´ll wait for a Benq that can burn all formats (DVD-R DL and maybe DVD-RAM), and the next drive(s) from LG and NEC.
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Postby RJW on Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:27 am

4082 is not 4163.
4082 is a good drive I would say which hasn't got the problems the 4163 has. (TO HIGH JITTER)

Benq will burn good on quality -R media.(okay some other drives can do better but it still is good.) But the low quality stuff yes it's not that great but the newer firmwares show there working on it. Much quality has improved but so did the burn times.
So I have good hopes for the new one.

Infosmart is crap so I don't blame any drive manufacturer when they don't support it. However Optodisc I think could be better supported by most drive manufacturers.
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Postby ricoman on Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:56 am

This was a subject of a CDfreaks forum several months ago. The spikes seem to be an anomally with scans on NEC burned discs by Liteon drives and can be ignored. They have no effect on playback on other drives or standalones. I'll be interested to see if they show up on scans when the ND-3500 firware is finally (if ever) updated to allow disc quality scans.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:36 pm

hrm, I don't think I believe in a consistantly re-occuring "annomaly".... :o

However, I can understand why it would be easier to classify it as such :lol:

But I do agree, it probably is not a concern.
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Postby ricoman on Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:16 pm

I don't know how to explain it but I've burned hundreds of discs on the ND-3500 and scanned them on two different model liteon combo drives and all, all have a spike at around .25 gig, no mater what media, Yuden, ricohjpn, sony D11, Verbatim MCC, all have the spike, some have a similiar spike near the end also. Some media have smaller spikes but all have a single spike of anywhere from 30-300 PIF and a smaller one on PIE in the same exact place. It doesn't seem to effect anything, it's just odd. I've posted numerous times asking of similiar experiencess and opinions. The feedback from some pretty knowledgeable moderators and others say it is a "bug" or idiosycracy peculiar to liteon scans of NEC drives. BELEIVE IT OR NOT! :D
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Postby Gabe on Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:21 pm

Next 2:

Primedisc DVD+R 8x 4,7 GB 25er Spindel


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD+R:RITEK-R03-002]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc & Book Type : [DVD+R] - [DVD+R]
Manufacturer Name : [Ritek Corp.]
Manufacturer ID : [RITEK]
Media Type ID : [R03]
Product Revision : [002]
Blank Disc Capacity : [2,295,104 Sectors = 4,482.6MB = 4.38GB (4.70GB)]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2.4x , 4x , 6x-8x]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8x:

Image



Fuji DVD+R 8x 25er Spindel Opusshop


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD+R:YUDEN000-T02-000]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc & Book Type : [DVD+R] - [Not Available]
Manufacturer Name : [Taiyo Yuden Co. Ltd.]
Manufacturer ID : [YUDEN000]
Media Type ID : [T02]
Product Revision : [Not Specified]
Blank Disc Capacity : [2,295,104 Sectors = 4,482.6MB = 4.38GB (4.70GB)]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2.4x , 4x , 6x-8x]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

16x

Image

And again those PIF-spikes
Last edited by Gabe on Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rdgrimes on Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:51 am

If you compare the error scans (with the single spikes of PIF at levels of 7-9), with the burn graphs from CDSpeed Datadisc, you should see a correlation between the error spikes and the OPC blips in the burn. No one has ever demonstrated a reading problem associated with single PIF spikes such as these. BTW, they have nothing to do with LiteOn. The new NEC FW, 3.04 allows error scanning with CDSpeed. I've only done a few scans with it, but the spikes are there on the NEC too. The spiikes seem to cause a whole lot more trouble for the people seeing them than they do for the discs being read back. Anyway, they appear to be related to the drive pausing for OPC re-calibration at higher speeds. This is not a new phenomenon, we've seen it as far back as there have been OPC pauses. Even seen it on CDR's at speed shifts.
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Postby ricoman on Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:22 pm

rdgrimes wrote: BTW, they have nothing to do with LiteOn. The new NEC FW, 3.04 allows error scanning with CDSpeed. I've only done a few scans with it, but the spikes are there on the NEC too. The spiikes seem to cause a whole lot more trouble for the people seeing them than they do for the discs being read back. Anyway, they appear to be related to the drive pausing for OPC re-calibration at higher speeds. This is not a new phenomenon, we've seen it as far back as there have been OPC pauses. Even seen it on CDR's at speed shifts.

Thanks for the info, I was wondering what the new NEC disc quality firmware would show. At any rate I think everyone seems to agree that the single spike are of no consequence. This should put minds at ease. =D>
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:41 pm

ricoman wrote:
rdgrimes wrote: BTW, they have nothing to do with LiteOn. The new NEC FW, 3.04 allows error scanning with CDSpeed. I've only done a few scans with it, but the spikes are there on the NEC too. The spiikes seem to cause a whole lot more trouble for the people seeing them than they do for the discs being read back. Anyway, they appear to be related to the drive pausing for OPC re-calibration at higher speeds. This is not a new phenomenon, we've seen it as far back as there have been OPC pauses. Even seen it on CDR's at speed shifts.

Thanks for the info, I was wondering what the new NEC disc quality firmware would show. At any rate I think everyone seems to agree that the single spike are of no consequence. This should put minds at ease. =D>


Both MediumRare and myself have seen discs with Single PIF spikes that caused reading errors...

But generally yes, they don't cause problems.

Thank you Rdgrimes for you input, I had suspected this was not actually a problem that only LiteON's had reading ONLY discs burned on the NEC... :wink:
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Postby ETP on Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Which FW to burn Max 0002 MIJ +R at 16X?

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