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Nero Backit-up verification problem

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Nero Backit-up verification problem

Postby disk2 on Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:43 am

I just did a New Drive Backup from my harddisk and it was in total 13 gig. (my total disc is 120 gig so 107 gig. is emtpy.)
I checked the verification box and unchecked the compression box.
When the backup was finished i ended up with a list of sectors that where wrong and a little screen that said that the backup failed.

I than did the whole thing again, but unchecking the verification box and now things went ok?

Nero is 6.6. 16 and backit-up is 1.2.0. 53
My antivirus and antispyware had been deactivated while doing a backup.

I understand that the harddisk is constantly changing so when a verification is being done errors will be noticed, BUT does this mean that my backup discs can't be used when i need it for a total reinstal?

That's basicly my q'n.
Anybody please help me with this one.
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Postby CCampbell on Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:01 pm

In our current version of BackItUp that comes with Nero 6, you can not do a verify if you backup the Boot Partition of your Hard Drive, as it will always fail the verify. It does not mean the backup is bad, but if it requires that you span more than one disc for the backup, you will never be able to complete the backup as it will stop after it fails to verify the first disc.

The problem with not using the Verify is that you can not be 100% sure that the backup is good. :oops:

We have really worked over our BackItUp program in Nero 7. We now have a feature we call 'Shadow Copy' and this allows you to use the Verify option for backing up the Boot Partition. We have a lot of other new features such as backing up to an Image Recorder, Verify a backup is good using CRC Checksum, backing up to FTP account, backing up to Network drives or removable drives. And much more.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby disk2 on Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:35 pm

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the reply.

I was happy and sad as i only bought my Nero Reloaded just 2 months ago and now it seems i have to upgrade again.(':x')

All i did was make a copy of the entire C hard drive and using the verifying option wich in itself worked out ok on 3 dvd-rw's it was just the outcome of the verifying that got my attention.


I'm still a bit puzzeled in what to do as it doesn't have to mean the backup is bad, but knowing it should be a perfect copy is not to think lightly about unless one likes to install all software again.

Thanks again for the answer i think i will get the latest 7 version in order to get things working out properly.
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Postby CCampbell on Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:11 pm

The backups should be good, but without a verify optoin, I personally would not risk it.

If I were in your shoes, I would do one of the following.

1) If you have a spare Hard Drive that is the same size or larger as the one you backed up, swap out hard drives and do a restore on the new hard drive to see if all restores properly.

2) Wait for Nero 7 is released in October, and install in Demo mode and use our new Backup Verify option. We now have the ability to verify if old backups are good in our new BackItUp program

P.S. If you do decide to upgrade, we do have a discount we are offering for Existing Nero 6 Retail bundles to be upgraded to Nero 7 Retail. But this only applies to Nero 6 Retail, not Nero 6 OEM bundles.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby disk2 on Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:46 pm

Hi Craig,

Yes, i have the retail version.
I do have a seperate Hard Drive that is the same size (120 gig) and i'll try to do what you have adviced.

I'll try the new Backit-up in the trail version when it's released in october.

I look forward to see what the discount is (can you perhaps tell)

Thanks for the help.
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:28 pm

CCampbell wrote:P.S. If you do decide to upgrade, we do have a discount we are offering for Existing Nero 6 Retail bundles to be upgraded to Nero 7 Retail. But this only applies to Nero 6 Retail, not Nero 6 OEM bundles.

hello Craig.
can you tell us more about the upgrade possibilities?
no info yet on the website.
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Postby CCampbell on Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:33 pm

Hi Dodecahedron,

Our upgrade policy is basicly the same as we offered when Nero 6.0 was first releasd.

Here are the options:

1) Those who purchase Nero 6 from Sept 1st to Nov 30th will be entitled to a free upgrade to Nero 7. If purchased on line, you simply need to register within 30 days of y our purchase and an Email will be sent to you with a Nero 7 serial key. For those who purchased Nero 6 from a Retail Store, you must register within 30 days of your purchase and provide a receipt for proof of purchase. And an EMail will be sent to you with a Nero 7 serial key

2) If you own a 'RETAIL' version of Nero 6, purchased before Sept 1st, you can purchase an upgrade to Nero 7 for $49.99 from the Nero website.


Those are the only two options. Everyone else has to purchase Nero 7 at the full $99.99 cost from the Retail Store. Or $99.99 via our Website if you want a Retail box sent to you, or $79.99 for ESD where you are sent a Serial key via Email and you must download Nero 7 from the Nero Web Site.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby dodecahedron on Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:55 pm

OK thanks for the info.
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Nero Backitup Handling of Media Errors during Backup

Postby ewoudenberg on Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:46 pm

CCampbell wrote:We have really worked over our BackItUp program in Nero 7. We now have a feature we call 'Shadow Copy' and this allows you to use the Verify option for backing up the Boot Partition. We have a lot of other new features such as backing up to an Image Recorder, Verify a backup is good using CRC Checksum, backing up to FTP account, backing up to Network drives or removable drives. And much more.


Thanks Craig. I've been really happy with Backitup in Nero 6 Ultra, it does pretty much exactly what I want -- except for the way it handles media errors during backup. I was backing up an inactive partition to 10 DVDs tonight when it got a verification error on DVD #6 (apparently caused by dodgy DVD media).

I was shocked that Nero seems to offer no way of reburning the failed DVD and continuing, or at least restarting the process from where it failed. Is it the software designer's intention that the user must start over from the beginning, burning the already verified DVDs again?

Can you tell me how this issue is addressed in Nero 7? I would be happy to purchase an upgrade if there is some way of recovering from a media failure during a backup.

Sincerely,
Eric Woudenberg
Massachusetts
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Postby CCampbell on Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:22 pm

Hi Eric,

To be honest, I'm not aware of any CD or DVD Recording software that offers to pickup where you left off when doing a Backup of this nature, or to restart the last DVD backup if it fails due to poor media.

I can check to see if its even possible, but I know it will not be an easy implementation.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby ewoudenberg on Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:35 am

CCampbell wrote:Hi Eric,

To be honest, I'm not aware of any CD or DVD Recording software that offers to pickup where you left off when doing a Backup of this nature, or to restart the last DVD backup if it fails due to poor media.

I can check to see if its even possible, but I know it will not be an easy implementation.


Craig and I had a PM exchange that I thought would be interesting to others, so he kindly let me post it here:

EWoudenberg wrote:Hi Craig -- Thanks for your help. Perhaps we could take this discussion offline. I don't wish to complain in public. Actually I don't want to complain at all, I just don't understand how a backup program can not have facilities for handling media errors during backup. If you're backing up a 300GB partition to 75 DVDs (something I was planning on doing), don't you have a reasonable chance that you'll encounter some kind of media problem? I thought that was the whole point of the verification step -- that you could detect problems and recover from them during the backup process. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't quite follow how large scale backup is supposed to work without such a feature. -Thanks again, Eric


CCambell wrote:The probelm is the format standard being used.

For Example: If you are burning a CD, if there is an error in the process, you have a coaster. There is no way for it to recover from such an operation. The 'Track-At-Once', 'Disc-At-Once', and 'Session-At-Once' format standards just do not offer any way for it to detect the problem and then prompt you for another disc so that it can try again.

The only way this is possible is with "Packet Writing'. But if you read up on Packet Writing in the forums, it's not very reliable, as data eventually is not able to be accessed after a period of time.

We have to use for standard that is reliable once written to disc, and that is the 'Track-At-Once' standard.


Believe me, if it was possible, we would do it.

For what you ask, this is only possible if you are writing to the Hard Drive or to a Tape drive. But not to CD, DVD or DVD-RAM media.

Regards,

Craig


Thanks Craig -- unfortunately I think I'm not being clear. I'm not trying to avoid making a coaster -- that's life if the DVD really does have a flaw. What I'm interested in is not having my entire backup process fail (making a dozen coasters!) because I encounter one DVD with a surface flaw partway through.

My observation is that Nero Backitup writes a complete DVD, then before going on to burn the next, verifies the current one by reading it and comparing it with the data it just wrote. What I'm asking is that Backitup detect when the data it wrote is bad (which it does today) and then offer to burn the data it was using in the verify step onto a new DVD (which it would then verify, and if successful, proceed to burning the next DVD).

Doesn't this seem like it should be straightforward?

Thank you,
Eric
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Postby cfitz on Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:59 pm

ewoudenberg wrote:Doesn't this seem like it should be straightforward?

Yes, it should be straightforward. You are not asking to re-burn a portion of a disc if verification fails, you are simply asking to re-burn just that one failed disc, in its entirety, and not be forced to re-burn the entire backup set of all discs.

Now, it may be that the Nero software developers architected their design poorly so it would be hard to implement with their design, but in general what you are asking for is trivial. All the backup software needs to do is keep track of what files it burned to the last disc (which, as you point out, it must be doing otherwise it couldn't verify) and burn them all again onto a complete new disc.

Heck, it would be quite reasonable to expect the software to keep a separate catalog of what it burned to all the disks during the backup so that you could burn an additional copy of any of the discs at any time (presuming that you hadn't yet deleted the original files on the hard drive). Keeping a separate catalog of the backed-up files is common practice for tape back-up systems because it takes so long to sequentially scan a tape to see what is on it. There is no reason the same can't be done with back-ups to optical media.

Craig, are you misunderstanding what Ewoudenberg is asking for?

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Postby CCampbell on Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:50 pm

Hi cfitz/Eric,

Yes, I did misunderstand his request. And I agree with cfitz observation, it should be possible. I'll put in the request for this feature.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby ewoudenberg on Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:02 pm

CCampbell wrote:Hi cfitz/Eric,

Yes, I did misunderstand his request. And I agree with cfitz observation, it should be possible. I'll put in the request for this feature.


Thanks kindly Craig! Any idea when that might be available for purchase?
-Eric
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:53 pm

sorry to be a killjoy, but not having this feature in BackItUp till now seems absolutely ridiculous (for not wanting to use stronger language).

and it pisses me off to think that one of the reasons i'm considering upgrading to Nero 7 is for these new fewatures (including this requested one) in BackItUp.
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Postby CCampbell on Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:56 pm

Hi Dodecahedron,

What can I say? It's an obvious feature now that its been brought to my attention. I've been in the CD/DVD Recording buiness for some years now, and we've had BIU as a part of Nero 6 for some time.

And yet this is the first time anyone has requested this feature or brought this to my attention. I personally never thought of it either. Sometimes people or companies get tunnel vision.

And not all failed writes will be because of poor media. So even with this feature, and a different brand of DVD or CD media the backup could fail to get beyond this point. Which means this feature will cause some users to waste more than one piece of media and they will be upset for our software not telling them it was poor media that was a cause. But all our software can do is report the error message reported by the Recoder, which 'could be caused' by poor media or dust. But which could also be caused by a number of other scenarios such as old firmware, conflicting drivers, dust on the optical head of the recorder, etc.

We naturally think that if a backup fails, then a log file should be generated so we can see what is the cause, so that it can be resolved and then a new backup attempted. This is where the tunnel vision comes in. As if it is just poor media, it is better to just be able to choose to put in another disc and continue the process.

This is not the first time Nero or any other company has missed the obvious, and an End users has to point out the obvious to them. But thanks to our Nero Users, we have implemented a number of 'obvious' features to improve our software. This is just another one of those. And I'm sure there will be many more in the future.

Regards,

Craig
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:14 am

fair enough. you bring up valid points.
not the least being, that being such an obvious feature, it could/should have been requested by users before.
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Postby smithcferg on Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:14 am

Hi. I'm new to this thread, but wanted to remark about my experiences with Backitup. I have burned three dvds for this program and every one has been a coaster - at least, every one has failed verification. I tried two different media. Two different partitions - the c and d partition. Later on I backed up approx. 3.5 gigs to one of the two media types using nero buning rom with a successful verify.

My suggestion is that you have a a way for the backitup program to generate a test backup that will be really put the media through its paces. An objective test that will help users to know if their media is going to be the cause of their problems. I did try using the dvd/cd speed test function but didn't get the impression from it that it was able to do this.

I heartily agree that it is silly to go 3/4 of the way through long backup only to have it fail on one disc and have to do it all over again. On my laptop, each dvd burn/verify is more than an hour long.

It would be good to include in the manual information about verifification failing on the boot partition. It would also be good to include information explaining how running other programs while doing the backup might cause problems.

Finally, it is very problematic that the boot partition cannot be properly verified when backed up. There are other backup programs that have tackled this matter successfully. Until you get this working right, are there any workarounds for this?

Appreciate your help, Craig.

Sincerely,

Craig
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