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PI/PIF testing question

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PI/PIF testing question

Postby grouch on Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:07 pm

I have 2 burners, BenQ DW1640 BSLB and NEC 3520 L&D 2.U2
Should I use the burner that I burnt the disc to do the scans or is it better to scan using the other drive, sort of like independent testing.
I only ask because the benq reports high spikes that the nec doesn't, and also vice versa.
so if i look at the two scans it doesn't make much sense
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Re: PI/PIF testing question

Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:24 pm

grouch wrote:I have 2 burners, BenQ DW1640 BSLB and NEC 3520 L&D 2.U2
Should I use the burner that I burnt the disc to do the scans or is it better to scan using the other drive, sort of like independent testing.
I only ask because the benq reports high spikes that the nec doesn't, and also vice versa.
so if i look at the two scans it doesn't make much sense


Try doing transfer rate tests on the discs. Dips in the read speed will tell you how much attention you should pay to odd looking spikes :wink:
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Postby Scour on Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:12 pm

Hello!

Maybe someone can help me:

Is PIF same like PO/POE?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:33 am

Scour wrote:Hello!

Maybe someone can help me:

Is PIF same like PO/POE?


POE is not the same as PIE or PIF. I don't think many people really know WHAT to make of POE actually. As for POF, there should never be ANY of them on a disc.
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Postby Scour on Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:10 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:
POE is not the same as PIE or PIF. I don't think many people really know WHAT to make of POE actually. As for POF, there should never be ANY of them on a disc.


I don´t know that the "E" means.

PIF = Parity Inner Failure; is the next instance the PO- Parity Outer?

POF = Parity Outer Failure, it means that the correction can´t correct Errors (Hope I´m right)
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:32 am

Scour wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:
POE is not the same as PIE or PIF. I don't think many people really know WHAT to make of POE actually. As for POF, there should never be ANY of them on a disc.


I don´t know that the "E" means.

PIF = Parity Inner Failure; is the next instance the PO- Parity Outer?

POF = Parity Outer Failure, it means that the correction can´t correct Errors (Hope I´m right)


PIE = Parity Inner Error
PIF = Parity Inner Failure
POE = Parity Outer Error
POF = Parity Outer Failure
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Postby Scour on Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:11 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
PIE = Parity Inner Error
PIF = Parity Inner Failure
POE = Parity Outer Error
POF = Parity Outer Failure


When a error appear, it goes to the next instance of the error-correction?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:28 pm

Scour wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:
PIE = Parity Inner Error
PIF = Parity Inner Failure
POE = Parity Outer Error
POF = Parity Outer Failure


When a error appear, it goes to the next instance of the error-correction?


I'm not sure how POE works into it, but basically yes.
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Postby Muchin on Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:08 am

Scour wrote:Hello!

Maybe someone can help me:

Is PIF same like PO/POE?

Most drives report PIF in number of rows. It is easier to see the relationship between PIF and POE if both use byte as the unit. Within a PIF row, those erroneous bytes not corrected in the first stage become POE bytes, up to 〜180 in number, to be corrected in the second stage.
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Postby Halc on Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:39 am

PIE = erroneus byte in an ECC block inner parity row (implicitly considered correctable). Aka "PI error"

PIF = uncorrectable inner parity row in an ECC block (can contain multiple uncorrectable PIE or just a single one. Will lead to 1 or more POE). Aka "pi failure"

POE = erroneus byte in an ECC block outer parity column (implicitly considered correctable). Aka "po error"

POF = uncorrectable outer parity column in an ECC block (can contain multiple uncorrectable POE or just a single one) aka "po failure"

ECC block = a matrix of dvd payload data along with error correction data aligned into a 208 rows and 172 columns.

For more info:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/forum/tm.asp?m=7 ... PIF&#79249

and of course the ECMA specs in question.

best regards,
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Postby grouch on Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:11 am

ok, i've taken a Fujifilm DVD+R, made in Japan, media code YUDEN000 T02 and burned it with my NEC 3520, firmware 2.U2 @ 16x.

I've done transfer test and quality scans @ 8x using the NEC 3520 and BenQ 1640 BSLB.

As you can see, the quality scans vary and I don't know which one to rely on.
Attachments
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x transfer NEC.png
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x transfer NEC.png (51.42 KiB) Viewed 3783 times
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x scan NEC8x.png
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x scan NEC8x.png (51.8 KiB) Viewed 3784 times
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Postby grouch on Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:12 am

Continued...
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YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x transfer BENQ.png
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x transfer BENQ.png (51.5 KiB) Viewed 3776 times
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x scan BENQ8x.png
YUDEN00T02 burn NEC16x scan BENQ8x.png (56.1 KiB) Viewed 3778 times
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:43 pm

Grouch,

I would say that all the scans point to the disc having a problem.... The NEC says the end of the disc is suspect, and the BenQ says the middle of the disc has a problem.

Why not just re-burn the disc?
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Postby Scour on Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:37 pm

Grouch,

Scan with the NEC @5x
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Postby RJW on Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:47 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:Grouch,

I would say that all the scans point to the disc having a problem.... The NEC says the end of the disc is suspect, and the BenQ says the middle of the disc has a problem.

Why not just re-burn the disc?


Not so sure about the NEC that dips could very well be possible because of stuff running in the background So if there's a change that you had stuff running in the background then I suggest a retest with the NEC befor completely saying it's complete garbage.
Also strange the NEC is the less good reader of these 2 based on the information I have however it doesn't seem to have the problem in the middle were the benq had problems. I wonder what problem there is at that specific spot.
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Postby rahzel on Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:29 pm

also could be because of heat.
when it was hot outside, every burnt DVDR had single PIF spikes like that with my NEC 3520A.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:29 pm

RJW wrote:Also strange the NEC is the less good reader of these 2 based on the information I have however it doesn't seem to have the problem in the middle were the benq had problems. I wonder what problem there is at that specific spot.


Yeah, I'm curious as to that myself!
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Postby grouch on Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:57 pm

Alright, new test.
Minimal background programs, no taskbar programs, internet usage 0, AFK when test in progress.
Asus probe temps, 35 CPU and 33 motherboard.
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Attachments
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc Create using NEC.png
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc Create using NEC.png (51.17 KiB) Viewed 3737 times
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC transfer NEC.png
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC transfer NEC.png (50.97 KiB) Viewed 3746 times
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC scan NEC5x.png
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC scan NEC5x.png (54.57 KiB) Viewed 3741 times
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Postby grouch on Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:58 pm

Continued...does this mean my BenQ is defective??
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YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC scan BenQ8x.png
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC scan BenQ8x.png (57.25 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC transfer BenQ.png
YUDEN000T02 Data Disc NEC transfer BenQ.png (49.56 KiB) Viewed 3735 times
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Postby rahzel on Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:09 pm

do you have an nforce motherboard? if so, do you have the nforce IDE sw drivers installed? if so, uninstall them.
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Postby grouch on Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:07 pm

I have an Asus P4P800-E Dlx which uses the Intel 865 northbridge, with the ICH5R southbridge, with onboard Promise controller. No nForce for me. And I use the default windows drivers.
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Postby rahzel on Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:25 am

i guess i should have read your sig #-o .
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:41 am

grouch wrote:I have an Asus P4P800-E Dlx which uses the Intel 865 northbridge, with the ICH5R southbridge, with onboard Promise controller. No nForce for me. And I use the default windows drivers.


Do you have a friend's computer you can try it on?

I've yet to figure out what caused it, but my BenQ DW1640 had major issues when installed on one of my PC's, but not on the other. Both machines ran DFI motherboards with NVidia chipsets too :o
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Postby grouch on Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:19 am

nah...i've spent enough time with these that's my stock is running low that i'm leaving these for less important back ups...back to the MIT sony08d1's from wal-mart...

aside from bitsetting and MIJ, the fujifilm's perform worse than the sony's...relatively same price, and sony's burn adequately well in both my burners at 16x

thanks to all for the suggestions and comments
Attachments
sony08d1 benq@16x scan nec@8x.png
SONY08D1 burned w/BenQ@16x WOPC on, SB on, Overspeed off
Scan with NEC@8x
sony08d1 benq@16x scan nec@8x.png (53.26 KiB) Viewed 3665 times
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Postby Muchin on Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm

Halc wrote:PIE = erroneus byte in an ECC block inner parity row (implicitly considered correctable). Aka "PI error"

PIF = uncorrectable inner parity row in an ECC block (can contain multiple uncorrectable PIE or just a single one. Will lead to 1 or more POE). Aka "pi failure"

POE = erroneus byte in an ECC block outer parity column (implicitly considered correctable). Aka "po error"

POF = uncorrectable outer parity column in an ECC block (can contain multiple uncorrectable POE or just a single one) aka "po failure"

Most probably you were too busy to check what you wrote above. Undoubtedly you are aware that only very few drives use byte instead of row as the unit of measurement for PIE. Another point is that PIE numbers given by some drives include PIF. I am not sure whether POE does not include POF by all drives.
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