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Pioneer DVD Burners to support PI/PO scanning

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:09 pm

Yeah, and I don't :D

Could you send the updated adware version to noe@hrz.tu-chemnitz.de?
I guess the proxy (which can't be bypassed) is b0rked...
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Postby KenW on Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:15 pm

ok emailed it, checked file it s right one.

Recent Change History

V3.44 – 3.46
Alpha test version for Pioneer PI/PO scanning for models DVR-103, DVR-104, DVR-105, DVR-`06, DVR-107, DVR-108, DVR-A03, DVR-A04, DVR-A05, DVR-A06, DVR-A07, DVR-A08.
Added pi/po scanning for Cyberdrive burners.
Added pi/po scanning for Nu DDW-164
Some bug fixes and improvements.
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Postby falberni on Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:24 pm

I tried DVDInfoPro 3.47. It's very cool that you can change the scales while it's in the middle of the scan. Well done.
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:06 pm

The results are weird.

For example, a Taiyo yuden dvd+r disc, which shows pisum8 max = 10 in the plextor 712, shows peaks of 130 in the pioneer a08 :o

Yeah, and the bushound logs are, well, less conclusive than the plextor ones :D
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Postby KenW on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:18 pm

alexnoe

I have a 716 and we know the 716 pi/pif scans cant be trusted at this time. This has been hammered out over and over on cd freaks plex threads. So this said I cant test pio scan vs. plex and have any way to know who is right. But I can say nicW made it clear that pioneer scans can not be compared in any way to other drives scans due to how the pioneer does scans.
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:21 pm

PIE is PIE, no matter how the drive scans. A difference of factor >10 is beyond what's "normal", especially if one scanning device shows peaks at the beginning of a disc and the other one doesn't show any peaks, or shows them at the end. However, i have not yet found out how to set the pioneer a08 to a lower scanning speed :|

What you might be refering to is Pioneer PO-results, because it scans for POE and not for PIF.
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Postby RJW on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:48 pm

If it really scans for Parrity outer fails so it must be zero not 280 !
If it scans for Parrity outer correction /Parrity Inner Fails then it should be 4 and not 280 according to +R standards.
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:51 pm

It scans for PIE and for POE, not for PIF and not for POF
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Postby RJW on Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:55 pm

but po is not pif so you have to read it as 280 and 280. I hope this helps.

Pardon but explain me this ? Am I going wrong here or has someone else screwed up.
I think that if the Parrity Inner correction fails(PIF) the drive still has to correct it. So it comes to the parrity outer part. If it it corrects it then you got PO. (which is a correct PIF ) If it failed in PO

So I think this means well Pioneer drives might not see difference between POF and PO but still PO should be lower as 4 for DVD+R standards because each PIF should give you a PO.

Or am I wrong here in that case. Proof me wrong and point me to the standards (book or ECMA part which proofs it.)
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:00 pm

PIE = parity inner error. That's the number of PI lines (not bytes !!) in 8 logical sectors which contains errors. One logical sector (32 kB) consists of 208 PI lines, so 8 logical sectors have 1664 PI lines. That's where the maximum value of 1664 for PI sum8 comes from.

PIF = number of PI lines that cannot be corrected by the PI correction

POE = could be number of bytes (!) that have to be corrected in the 2nd layer of correction due to a PIFs. At least, that is what PlexTools say it is (in the end, "POE", "PIF" etc are just a bunch of abbreviations)... Of course, if one PI line is broken, then there might be a few bytes only broken, or all 172 bytes of that line.
It is also possible that POE refers to the number of PO rows that contain errors; only some scan results will reveal what is really meant (for either meaning, there are certain limits for the values)

POF = baaaaad

ECMA-Standards for DVDs are ECMA-267, ECMA-337, ECMA-338.
The "colored books" won't help here, as they cost $$$$$$$
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Postby Ian on Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:11 pm

alexnoe wrote:For example, a Taiyo yuden dvd+r disc, which shows pisum8 max = 10 in the plextor 712, shows peaks of 130 in the pioneer a08 :o


I saw similar things with KProbe. Then again, it might have been because the ASUS scanned at 8x.. I dunno.
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:20 pm

The Plextor 712 is really a crappy reader, but it doens't report such high error values for those overpriced discs even at 12x scan speed.... maybe the pioneer drive does really see those error rates, but I can't even find the peak values dvdinfopro reports in the bushound log. Maybe i'm just too stupid, but something IS weird
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Postby alexnoe on Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:45 pm

reflashed to asus 1.10 and scanned a crap disc (Ritek G01).

Results after a few seconds of scanning in nero cd dvd speed:
PIE max = 24000

DVDInfoPro reports values about 100 times lower with the pioneer 1.14 firmware (and crashes with asus 1.10)....

somehow i'm not sure if the error information returned by the drive is interpreted correctly #-o
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Postby KenW on Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:37 pm

All I can say is nicW told me when i did the beta testing on the pioneer scanning to read pie/poe 8/8ecc as 280/280 or less is ok. if you dont like this logic you may leave nicW message on www.cdrinfo.com in dvdinfopro topic area. Nic said that pioneer does not scan like any of the other drives that scan, what he meant by this im not sure.
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Postby RJW on Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:46 am

Found out were I F-u-ck-ed up.
Hmm it seems we got some options. But it seems we need more results befor jumping to conclusions.

Since august there have been some lengthy discussions with Pioneer about PI/PO scanning.
Pioneer has some concerns about this test and basically Pioneer Japan has to give their permission to add support for their drives.
Therefore the PI/PO test is disabled for Pioneer drives but hopefully this will change soon.


I said so that Pioneer has concerns.

Remember when K-probe was launched and some material was tested on it and comments of the drive manufacturer were asked.
Well a some compannies said: "K-probe is just a tool that shows performance on a drive. So it doesn't say a thing about quality" *1

1 Note one the above line is not the exact quote from the article but is just more the statement of the drive manufacturers in my own words.

Now you may guess what Pioneer gave back as comments on K-probe.

I personally think K-probe says little about quality but still it says something and something is better as nothing !)
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Postby alexnoe on Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:42 am

Judging from the values I get, it might even be possible that the drive reports the number of bad bytes corrected by the PI layer, and not just the number if PI lines that needed correction.

However, only Pioneer knows for sure :(
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Postby RJW on Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:59 am

and they probally will not help us unless there policies change.

:x
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Postby alexnoe on Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:18 pm

Why does DVDInfoPro send only one instruction per 256 sectors (= 16 logical sectors)?
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Postby RJW on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:03 pm

Well what I can say that with some quick testing I allready find quite disturbing results.
I think that if you run the same disc's 5 times over again it should give results in the same line.

Now with RICOHJPN and CMC media this would work quite okay.
However with RITEK R01 I get weird results.
From very good to very bad to just spikes point. In other word all 5 graphs are different !

Based on Ricohjpn and CMC I would say it's counting error after PI correction. But based on the results with Ritek R01. I become clueless on what's it doing. (Spike of PO high in the begining when there is hardly PI in that measurement !)
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Postby alexnoe on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:05 pm

I think that if you run the same disc's 5 times over again it should give results in the same line.
When using a plextor 712, this is true, with variations of about +/-5%

I already know where the error date is reported in the bushound log, but I still have no idea how to read it. I don't even find the maximum value DVDInfoPro reports :o

It's really awkward
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