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LiteOn 166S -> problems resolved, thanks all

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LiteOn 166S -> problems resolved, thanks all

Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:32 am

Well, I have had a little more time to play with my new 166S. It does a fine job reading data CD's, rips audio with speed and accuracy, and is generally pretty quiet. But I do have two problems.

First, when playing audio CD's and VCD's, it is sometimes terribly noisy. (I suspect it will do the same with DVD's, but haven't tried yet.) This is not high-speed whirring noise of the disc spinning. In fact, it doesn't happen at high speeds, only at the low speeds of audio and VCD playback (and presumably DVD playback).

It is hard to describe, but I would say that the sound has a chattering or scuffing quality to it, and it is quite pronounced. It starts as soon as the tray is closed. Usually it ends quickly and the drive settles into a smooth whir. Sometimes (maybe 1 in 4 or 5 times) it doesn't stop, but continues to chatter. If I eject the disc and re-insert it, the problem usually goes away. If I force the drive to higher speeds (by running Nero CD Speed tests, for example) it goes away.

My theory is that this has something to do with Lite-On's Auto Balance Spindle (ABS). My guess is that when a new disc is inserted, the drive spins it up in a physically loosely coupled mode in order to gauge the extent of disc imbalance. This would be the noisy, chattering part of the process. Then as spindle speed increases, the drive adjusts to the imbalance, and locks the spindle and disc into a balanced position. This is the switch to the smooth whir.

If this theory is correct, then I hypothesize that sometimes my drive isn't locking the spindle. Perhaps at some times when it is playing low data-rate discs like audio CD's, it never reaches the rotational speed threshold for locking the spindle and thus continues to chatter. Bumping up the rotational speed of the spindle by increasing the read speed (e.g. via Nero CD Speed) would then force the spindle over the threshold and cause it to lock.

Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Has anyone else noticed, when inserting a disc, the initial chattering and then the transition to smooth spinning? I am afraid I may have a bum drive.

My second issue (which is not as important at this point) is that PowerDVD won't play VCD discs. It reports error 89020003, and says that the disc may have been protected to prevent playback, may need to be cleaned, or may be scratched and unplayable. None of this is true; it is a brand-new disc I just burned myself of my own material. And it plays just fine in the same drive when I use an evaluation copy of WinDVD.

Again, anyone else see the same problem? I am running Windows 2000, and used Nero 5.5.9.9 to burn the VCD.

Thanks,

cfitz

<edit>changed title of thread to reflect satisfactory resolution of problems</edit>
Last edited by cfitz on Mon Nov 11, 2002 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LiteOn 166S - the bad news: 16X series owners' input so

Postby cdrfreak on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:32 am

cfitz wrote:My second issue (which is not as important at this point) is that PowerDVD won't play VCD discs. It reports error 89020003, and says that the disc may have been protected to prevent playback, may need to be cleaned, or may be scratched and unplayable. None of this is true; it is a brand-new disc I just burned myself of my own material. And it plays just fine in the same drive when I use an evaluation copy of WinDVD.

That's a bug in PowerDVD which can be fixed by upgrading:
http://www.gocyberlink.com/english/download/dl_file.jsp?dl_id=82
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Re: LiteOn 166S - the bad news: 16X series owners' input so

Postby Robotnik on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:32 am

cfitz wrote:First, when playing audio CD's and VCD's, it is sometimes terribly noisy. (I suspect it will do the same with DVD's, but haven't tried yet.) This is not high-speed whirring noise of the disc spinning. In fact, it doesn't happen at high speeds, only at the low speeds of audio and VCD playback (and presumably DVD playback).
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My LTD-166S does not seem to exhibit the symptoms you describe. Maybe it's just that the CDs you've tried so far are unbalanced. Actually I think my drive is relatively quiet. Sure it isn't the quietest, but it isn't as loud as a lot of drives I've owned.
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Postby ryangs on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

I just got a 166S and I think it's really quiet. Granted, the only comparison I have is my old 16x Liteon CDRW, which was pretty noisy. The 166S doesn't seem to vibrate noisily or anything. It's absolutely silent when playing DVDs, and it's quiet enough doing other things that it doesn't bother me. And I'm picky about noise; all my case fans are L1A Panaflos, and I can't stand a loud computer!
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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Well, reading your feedback, it sounds like I may have a bad drive. Could you take a listen for yourself and confirm? Rather than force you to rely on my poor description of the sound, I decided to record it (~180 KBytes) :

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cfitz771/ ... s16kHz.mp3

I recorded the loading and reading of an audio disc. The beginning of the track is a couple of seconds of ambient noise - just the case fans. Then you can hear the tray closing and a few seconds of silence while the disc is recognized. Seven seconds into the track the disc begins to spin up and makes that terrible chattering sound I described earlier. It almost sounds like I have a rattlesnake in my drive. Yikes! :o At this point the disc is still spinning at very slow audio playback rates (2x ~ 4x??), but it is making plenty of noise.

The nasty noises continue until the 20-second mark, and would continue indefinitely except that at the 20-second mark I started a CD quality check with Nero CD Speed. That forced the drive to speed up, and you can begin to hear the whine of the motor kicking in. At 25 seconds the reader reaches 16x and the nasty chattering suddenly stops, giving way to the expected whir of high rpm reading. I don’t object to this whir. It is quieter than my old AOpen CD-ROM, and it only occurs at top speed.

I then aborted the CD quality check, and the disc begins to spin down. You can hear a transition to a slower and quieter rpm at 45 seconds.

Finally, I hit the play button to play the CD audio, and the drive spins down all the way to its lowest speed. You can hear this occur at 52 seconds. At this point the drive is quiet as a mouse, with only a soft “chi - chi - chi” heard as it periodically reads the audio data (as I noted earlier, it reads audio CD’s faster than 1x).

For completeness I have also included a sample of a “normal” run without the horrible chattering:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cfitz771/ ... s16kHz.mp3

The normal run contains the same sequence of events as the bad run (albeit with slightly different timing) and uses the same CD.

So, what do you think? It obviously isn’t the CD, because sometimes it plays fine and sometimes it doesn’t. And I can eliminate the chattering at will by forcing the drive to spin up. But that isn’t a real solution.

Unless someone listens to the recording and says “A-Ha! I know what the problem is,” I think this drive will probably be going back for replacement. :cry:

cfitz

P.S. This is my first attempt at creating an MP3 file. It certainly is much smaller than the original wav file, but I was surprised that I couldn’t compress it even more. I thought that since I was just using a cheapo microphone connected to a cheapo sound card to record noise, I would be able to use the highest compression settings without significant degradation. But, surprisingly, even my leaden ears could readily detect the degradation at 24Kbps, and squeezing it further than that caused very audible distortion and loss of real information.
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Postby Robotnik on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Just listened to both those and my 166S does not make those clattering sounds. Come to think of it though, I had a really crappy 12X CD-ROM drive which did that a few yrs ago. You most likely have a dud drive. But I would make sure it is definitely not the disc before sending it back. Try like about 3 or 4 different audio and VCDs of some different brands, just incase.
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Re: LiteOn 166S - the bad news: 16X series owners' input so

Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

cdrfreak wrote:That's a bug in PowerDVD which can be fixed by upgrading:
http://www.gocyberlink.com/english/download/dl_file.jsp?dl_id=82

Thanks cdrfreak, but that didn't help. It sure looked like just the ticket, but, alas, I still have the same problem. I think the next thing I need to do is get an actual DVD and see if it does the same thing.

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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Robotnik wrote:Just listened to both those and my 166S does not make those clattering sounds. Come to think of it though, I had a really crappy 12X CD-ROM drive which did that a few yrs ago. You most likely have a dud drive. But I would make sure it is definitely not the disc before sending it back. Try like about 3 or 4 different audio and VCDs of some different brands, just incase.

Thanks Robotnik. It really helps to know that other 166S owners have listened and can unequivocally say that the noises aren't normal.

I have tried a number of different audio and VCD's, and the drive made the noises for all of them. It really isn't looking good for this particular unit, but I also want to try an actual DVD before I finally pack up this dud for exchange.

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Postby Dartman on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Well that noise is the ABS or whatever they call it working. Maybe it was here but a while back someone posted a drawing of the system and it usea 5 ball bearings in a groove in the spindle to auto balance itself. Sometimes they probably don't settle in right when it keeps being noisy.
My 163 makes the same noise and it scared the heck outa me and a few others till I saw that post with the picture.
I wonder if that new drive will read Protected audio cd's and scratched ones better, mine is bad at both.
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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Dartman wrote:Well that noise is the ABS or whatever they call it working. Maybe it was here but a while back someone posted a drawing of the system and it usea 5 ball bearings in a groove in the spindle to auto balance itself. Sometimes they probably don't settle in right when it keeps being noisy.

Thanks for your input, Dartman.

I agree that ABS is the root cause of the noise. That was the theory I spelled out in my original post (although I didn't know the exact mechanism - thanks for the heads up on the ball bearings). But I might characterize the noise, for my particular unit, as the sound of ABS not working. Sometimes my drive makes the noise for a second or two while first spinning up, and then the noise stops. I suspect that is normal operation, and I never had any objection to it since I always assumed that was the ABS at work. But 20-25% of the time it makes the noise and never stops. It will go on as long as the CD is playing, and only stops when I eject the CD or do something to increase the rotational rate.

Dartman wrote:My 163 makes the same noise and it scared the heck outa me and a few others till I saw that post with the picture.

Does yours stay stuck in the noisy mode 20-25% of the time like mine, or does it make the noise for a brief moment while it balances the disc and then go quiet?

Dartman wrote:I wonder if that new drive will read Protected audio cd's and scratched ones better, mine is bad at both.

I'm curious too, but have nothing I can report at this time. If I do find out anything, I will let you know.

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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

By the way, here is a link to Lite-On's FAQ about ABS and its ball bearings:

http://www.liteonit.com.tw/english-s-fa ... m#cd-rom_5

The question remains, is my drive abnormal in its excessive and prolonged noise? I would appreciate more votes from other Lite-On owners. Does the swishing/chattering sound on your drive always go away after a brief spin-up period when playing audio CDs/VCDs/DVDs, or does it often remain constant for the entire time you play a disc?

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Postby Robotnik on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

cfitz wrote:By the way, here is a link to Lite-On's FAQ about ABS and its ball bearings:

http://www.liteonit.com.tw/english-s-fa ... m#cd-rom_5

The question remains, is my drive abnormal in its excessive and prolonged noise? I would appreciate more votes from other Lite-On owners. Does the swishing/chattering sound on your drive always go away after a brief spin-up period when playing audio CDs/VCDs/DVDs, or does it often remain constant for the entire time you play a disc?

cfitz


I have had my drive for a week now and the swishing sound (there is no chattering sound with mine) always goes away in the brief spin up period. I have tried everything from Audio-CDs, VCDs, DVDs and CD-ROMs and none do that.
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Postby NeilPeart on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

My LTD-165H makes a brief sound when the disc is inserted; this sound does not persist throughout the duration of the disc usage.
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Postby Dartman on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:33 am

Mine only does it for a few seconds on initial spinup, then it quiet except for the fan disk spinning noise, so yes, yours proabably has a problem.
Gunked up ball bearings or something not stamped right in the ABS probably. Sounds like everyone elses works so far, you just got a dud, bummer.
The More Fast and the Furious has protection on it, thats what I bought just to see if I could rip it or not. I also like a couple of the songs so it wasn't a total wast of money :)
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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:37 am

Thanks for your comments, everyone. I have concluded that my particular unit is defective, and have received an RMA from newegg to return it for replacement.

As for the 89020003 error in PowerDVD, I am coming to believe that this is a problem with Nero and its ability to compile VCD images for burning, not a problem with PowerDVD. When I downloaded and burned pre-compiled VCD and SVCD sample images (.cue and .bin files) from www.vcdhelp.com, PowerDVD played them without a problem. I think that Nero isn't generating 100% compliant VCD discs when I use its compilation function and PowerDVD is less tolerant of the errors than WinDVD, but I need to do more investigating to be sure.

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Postby vio_man on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:20 am

My LTD-166S drive creates lot of errors at the CD Quality check's end, using a clean and unscratched audio cd.
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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:20 am

vio_man wrote:My LTD-166S drive creates lot of errors at the CD Quality check's end, using a clean and unscratched audio cd.

Hi vio_man. Does it do it on all of your CD's or just one? I just finished posting good results from my LTD-166S on the "Just picked up a LiteOn LTD-166S" thread where you also described your bad results. I've been quite happy with my LTD-166S, after I got the initial defective one replaced.

Which brings me to my update. I was thinking about letting everyone know how things finally worked out with my problem drive, but was going to wait a little longer before posting my final opinion. But, as this thread is now alive again, I might as well do it now.

Newegg replaced the faulty drive without any hassle. My replacement drive arrived a couple of weeks ago, and it does not exhibit the problems I described when I began this thread. Apparently I was just unlucky enough to get a defective drive the first time. These things do happen from time to time, but I can now report that I am happy with both my 166S and the service I received from newegg.com.

Thanks again to those whose feedback allowed me to determine that I had a bad drive that was not representative of Lite-On quality in general.

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Postby ETP on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:26 am

I should get mine today from newegg!!! Hope its fine!!

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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:27 am

EARLTHEPEARL wrote:I should get mine today from newegg!!! Hope its fine!!

Good luck! Let us know how you make out.

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Postby ETP on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:33 am

Nero CD Speed Test results
General Information
Operating System Windows XP Professional
Drive JLMS DVD-ROM LTD-166S
Firmware Version DS08
Serial Number ?
Disc Audio CD
Capacity 66:05.00
Transfer Rate
Start 21.52x
End 45.76x
Average 35.02x
Type CAV
DAE Quality
Quality 10
Accurate Stream Yes
Seek Times
Random 78 ms
1/3 89 ms
Full 159 ms
CPU Usage
1X 0 %
2X 1 %
4X 3 %
8X 5 %
Interface
Burst Rate 21277 KB/sec
Spin Up/Down Times
Spin Up Time 0.01 sec
Spin Down Time 3.51 sec
Load/Eject Times
Load Time 1.31 sec
Eject Time 1.09 sec
Recognition Time 8.92 sec
Log
Time Elapsed Action
[03:47:33] Starting Transfer Rate Test
[03:49:32] 1:58 Speed:22-46 X CAV (35.02 X average)
[03:49:32] Starting DAE Quality Test
[03:49:36] Total errors: 0 (0.000 %)
[03:49:36] DAE Quality: 10
[03:49:37] 0:06 Accurate Stream: Yes
[03:49:37] Starting Seek Times Test
[03:49:45] Random seek: 78 ms
[03:49:54] 1/3 seek: 89 ms
[03:50:10] 0:33 Full seek: 159 ms
[03:50:10] Starting CPU Usage Test
[03:50:25] CPU usage at 1X: 0 %
[03:50:40] CPU usage at 2X: 1 %
[03:50:55] CPU usage at 4X: 3 %
[03:51:10] 1:00 CPU usage at 8X: 5 %
[03:51:10] Starting Burst Rate Test
[03:51:11] 0:01 Interface burst rate: 21 MB/sec (21277 KB/sec)
[03:51:11] Starting Spin-Up/Down Test
[03:51:14] Spin-up time: 0.01 seconds
[03:51:27] 0:16 Spin-down time: 3.51 seconds
[03:51:27] Starting Load/Eject Test
[03:51:28] Eject time: 1.09 seconds
[03:51:30] Load time: 1.31 seconds
[03:51:39] 0:11 Recognition time: 8.92 seconds


The test went fine, but my first attempt at a burn limited the 166s to 16x.I will try to play with the settings tonight.

BQ 1640 BSOB
NEC 4550 1.6T
Plextor 716a 1.09
Pioneer 109/A09 158
Pioneer 110/A10 1.39
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Postby ETP on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:33 am

I have got to get to work, but I just did a 667mb audio with a 40x blank in 3 mins total=lead in + lead out. I set the 166s to max in set cd function of nero tools. :D

BQ 1640 BSOB
NEC 4550 1.6T
Plextor 716a 1.09
Pioneer 109/A09 158
Pioneer 110/A10 1.39
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Sony 875P & 333ES
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Postby cfitz on Thu Jan 01, 1970 6:33 am

Looking good, EARLTHEPEARL.

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Postby LinuxRules on Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:42 am

Hello Everyone,

About the noise issue, just to make sure I understand correctly, a grunting/rumbling sound as the drive begins to spin-up is normal, right?

Just got my LTD-166S and the grunting spin-up noise caught me off guard, wasn't sure if my drive was defective or if the noise was ok. The noise only lasts for a second or two then it quits and the drive spins-up.

Thanks!

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Postby Dartman on Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:20 am

Yeah it's normal, it's when it keeps doing it after the disk is up to speed that's a problem.
I just replaced my 163 with the 166 and it seems pretty good, plus it will play and rip that More Fast and the Furious disk now that all my other Liteons wont touch.
Maybe my old Plex readers days are numbered now.
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