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Problems with TY media

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Problems with TY media

Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:02 pm

Hey everyone,

I've been noticing a rise in problems with TY media as of late, and I'm trying to find out how many other people are experiencing them. I've run into the following problems personally:

1) Poor bonding on DVDs. Sometimes the discs seperate on their own, sometimes when dropped, and nearly every time I do a bonding test. This occurs on all DVD media from Taiyo Yuden, ranging from their TYG01 to TYG03 and YUDEN00T02 (haven't tested YUDEN000T01 or YUDEN000T03 yet. Both silver laquer and inkjet printable surfaces seem to be affected by this, and it occurs in both Premium and Value lines of their products.

2) Poor inkjet surface quality. Aside from being one of the longer inkjet surfaces to take to dry, it always seems to be less crisp then inkjet surfaces from say Verbatim, and even more so compared to RiData's Hub Printable white inkjet media (which is by far the best surface I've seen, but the media itself is too unpredictable to use!). Furthermore, on the 16x white inkjet printable discs, the surface appears to not be able to accept a standard Primera Laminator film properly. The film peels and lifts up at the edges of the disc. This may be caused by slight warping in the disc, but I am unable to test for this sort of thing, so I can't be certain.

3) Poor quality and compatability with 16x DVD-Rs. Taiyo Yuden is a premium name disc, which we spend extra $$$ on, because we expect it to burn in every drive, and be playable afterwards. The results I CONSISTANTLY see with my own 16x DVD-Rs are almost always horrible. It has been pointed out to me that when burned on the right drives, the media is good.... that's great, but this is supposed to be TAIYO YUDEN media, and not Daxon or Prodisc media (which by the way, seem to be better supported for 16x DVD-Rs then Taiyo Yuden is right now!). Even Plextor, who SPECIALLY optomizes their drives to TY because they use TY for their own brand of media, is having problems getting it to work as well as they'd want it to.

If you are having *ANY* problems with TY, PLEASE report them here!! I do not believe I'm the only person experiencing these issues.

Thanks!
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Postby [buck] on Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:06 pm

Hi Dolph :)

1) Yes, Taiyo Yuden bonding could use a little work. I have 4 different batches of Taiyo Yuden 8X DVD+Rs. The first one is Fuji branded TG001125. These are well bonded. The second one is Fuji branded TG001133. The bonding on these could use a little work. While they're not at risk of peeling apart by themselves, it doesn't take too much effort to pry them apart. The third batch is Fuji branded TG001159. These are well bonded. Lastly, I have some Sony TG001162 that are well bonded.

To be fair though, bonding is certainly not a problem exclusive to Taiyo Yuden. As you know, Maxell, Prodisc, and Daxon (including Sony media), just to name a few, have big problems in this regard. Certainly though, Taiyo Yuden could learn a few things from Ritek in regards to bonding.

2) Everyone knows Taiyo Yuden's printable surface sucks. So yeah, that's pretty much all there is to it, it sucks.

3) Taiyo Yuden 16X DVD+Rs don't impress me at all. They just don't compare to their 8X counterpart. Hopefully, given some time, Taiyo Yuden can fix this.

Re: TYG03, I don't think it's all that bad. Well actually, value line TYG03 stinks. Premium is pretty good most of the time, but its true, not all drives can burn it with the quality one would expect from TY. This is a bit dissapointing, because Taiyo Yuden used be the benchmark for compatibility and burn quality.

:-?
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Postby costaud on Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:35 pm

Hi everybody,
A little hello from france :wink:
For my first post in this forum, I bought Plextor DVD+R 16X YUDEN000 T03 (spindle of 50) and I burned them on my Pioneer 110D (x16) and Plextor 712A (x12) , and I can confirm that the quality test I made was better with Pioneer media burned than plextor.
As I see the recommended media list on the plextor site, I don't see TY :o

But when I read the first post from dolphinius_rex, I see some problems with TY silver laquer !! I want to buy Taiyo Yuden DVD-R 8X (100pcs) TYG02 which are sliver on top as I can see on the website http://www.cdrvierge.com/ , now I have a doubt #-o , may be value line media ?, do you think I will have to take other media like Verbatim for my plextor 712A ?
Thanks for your help
best regards
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Postby Grain on Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:48 pm

I haven't noticed any bonding issues with any Taiyo's, but I've not tried their 16X +R's yet. Completely satisfied with TYG02's on all fronts, my media of choice, I have no complaints with their printability either. ONLY issue I've had is with TYG03's and a Pioneer 111D, in which it had crazy POF's, bottom 2 discs of a 50 disc spindle, but I think it's more of a case of the drive & media not getting along. Extremely happy with YUDEN000T02's & TYG01's also.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:58 am

TYG01 and YUDEN000T02 are much more consistant when it comes to bonding. For TYG03, I'm getting more and more unimpressed with it. It seems to be laminating poorly on a regular basis, and I'm beginning to wonder about if the media itself is minorly warped, which could cause such an issue. Beyond that, TYG03 seems to print even worse then TYG02.

As for bonding, before you say you don't have a problem, maybe you should let us know just how you're checking for bonding? It's kind of like saying Ritek DVD+RDL media works well based ENTIRELY because you've never seen it fail a burn process.
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Postby Halc on Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:12 am

Prelim data:

Yuden000 T03 16x DVD-R (authentic, straight from TY): less than optimal burning results at 16x (burn with LG/Nec/BenQ drives, scan with LiteOn/Plextor/Nec/BenQ drives). Less than optimal aging (raised humidity and temp in aging acceleration chamber).

YUDEN000 T02 DVD+R 8x (Fujifilm, jc, authentic, bought a year ago). Quite good results (LG/Nec/BenQ burners, LiteOn/Plextor/Nec/BenQ scanners) - only some PIF peaks towards the end of the disc (and LG has no idea how to burn these). Excellent aging results (almost no signs of aging).

Haven't tested UV/pH stress.

I'm personally very disappointed with their 16x -R media overall (compatibility, aging) when compared to their 8x +R media.
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Postby frank1 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:37 am

To get genuine Taiyo Yuden I buy now them under the Panasonic brand
because:
- they are easy to pick up at my local shop
- I never spotted any fakes among the Panasonic brand.
I have no bad experience so far among these Panasonic branded
with bonding or writing quality
but I prefer Panasonic DVD-R 8x with MID code TYG02
Unfortunaly these TYG02 begin to disappear from the shelves ...



TYG03
Image LM-RS120NE10

Image LM-RS120NE25
inner hub:
XA625A108950GK

outer hub:
0519
GG000106 (batch code)
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Postby Grain on Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:54 am

I check bonding not overly scientifically, bend them till they break. In my tests, about 20 discs, various TY media codes, they've all bent to touching without the two sides seperating. Odd time they'll break before touching, about 10%, but I don't expect them to bend that much in normal use :D .
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Postby ItalianJob on Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:36 pm

My Plextor (YUDEN T03) DVD+R 16X in 50 spindle are not impressive, they give me a 97 score with quality test on Nero CD-DVD Speed (using two burners : BenQ 1620 and LG 4166).

Lately I burn a Plextor DVD-R 8X (TYG02) on my old 1620 @ 12X and it gives me an oustanding 99 score with a very low level of total PIF.

This is the result of the cost war... :roll: Sad to see new generation of product less attractive than old one.

MCC004 are sometimes poor too... No more absolut references #-o
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:11 pm

Grain wrote:I check bonding not overly scientifically, bend them till they break. In my tests, about 20 discs, various TY media codes, they've all bent to touching without the two sides seperating. Odd time they'll break before touching, about 10%, but I don't expect them to bend that much in normal use :D .


How is that supposed to test for bonding??? :o
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Postby Gen-An on Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:14 pm

ItalianJob wrote:My Plextor (YUDEN T03) DVD+R 16X in 50 spindle are not impressive, they give me a 97 score with quality test on Nero CD-DVD Speed (using two burners : BenQ 1620 and LG 4166).

Lately I burn a Plextor DVD-R 8X (TYG02) on my old 1620 @ 12X and it gives me an oustanding 99 score with a very low level of total PIF.

This is the result of the cost war... :roll: Sad to see new generation of product less attractive than old one.

MCC004 are sometimes poor too... No more absolut references #-o


You're complaining about a 97? People take those CD Speed scores way too seriously. Far more important that the score is the max and average PIE and PIF.
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Postby ItalianJob on Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:10 pm

ItalianJob wrote:You're complaining about a 97? People take those CD Speed scores way too seriously. Far more important that the score is the max and average PIE and PIF.


Yes I know that. But trully, you are not buying TY media to obtain lots of max PIF spikes = 7 (I think that gives a 97 score) or more... :roll:
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Postby Grain on Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:06 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
Grain wrote:How is that supposed to test for bonding??? :o


If by bonding your talking about the 2 layers being bonded together, and their seperation as being an issue, how else would one check? I've tried prying apart with a knife, which is silly (by the by, not easily done with TY media), or theres the old dropping on cement, which is rather pointless.
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Postby RJW on Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:55 am

Halc wrote:Prelim data:

Yuden000 T03 16x DVD-R (authentic, straight from TY): less than optimal burning results at 16x (burn with LG/Nec/BenQ drives, scan with LiteOn/Plextor/Nec/BenQ drives). Less than optimal aging (raised humidity and temp in aging acceleration chamber).

YUDEN000 T02 DVD+R 8x (Fujifilm, jc, authentic, bought a year ago). Quite good results (LG/Nec/BenQ burners, LiteOn/Plextor/Nec/BenQ scanners) - only some PIF peaks towards the end of the disc (and LG has no idea how to burn these). Excellent aging results (almost no signs of aging).

Haven't tested UV/pH stress.

I'm personally very disappointed with their 16x -R media overall (compatibility, aging) when compared to their 8x +R media.


I think you mean 16x +R media because YUDEN000 T03 is +R or were your experience with TYG03 even more worse ? :D

Frank1 wrote:Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:37 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get genuine Taiyo Yuden I buy now them under the Panasonic brand
because:
- they are easy to pick up at my local shop
- I never spotted any fakes among the Panasonic brand.


Only problem is that panasonic also uses other manufacturers on occasions. Still the packages that say made in japan are safe when it comes to getting TY so far. But do check for it !

Grain wrote:I check bonding not overly scientifically, bend them till they break. In my tests, about 20 discs, various TY media codes, they've all bent to touching without the two sides seperating. Odd time they'll break before touching, about 10%, but I don't expect them to bend that much in normal use .

That method is pure torture. Creating shape problems.

Drop test is fair. And if you say TY is hard to take a part I can think of the things.
A You Really got some good TY's.
B No reference on easy or not easy.

Since people call me unlucky with media let's assume your lucky and got A.
:D
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:12 am

The best way to test for bonding (I'd say better then a drop test) is to pry the disc apart from the centre hub using your finger nails. I can usually take apart a TY disc in about 1 or 2 seconds with little to no effort. Maxell Japanese consumer grade discs take me no effort at all, and I can do it even without having much of a nail. Most Ritek can not be taken apart by a bare hand. Optodisc and CMC are what I would call "average bonding". Prodisc is generally awful, although Prodisc's media sold under Fuji brand has been ok for me so far.
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Postby Grain on Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:00 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:Prodisc's media sold under Fuji brand has been ok for me so far.


I've had similar luck, with my bending test, Fuji/Prodiscs take the most effort to seperate &/or shatter.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:49 pm

Grain wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:Prodisc's media sold under Fuji brand has been ok for me so far.


I've had similar luck, with my bending test, Fuji/Prodiscs take the most effort to seperate &/or shatter.


I still have a lot of doubt that bending the disc is a positive test for anything, other then the malleability of the plastic used.
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Postby Grain on Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:01 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:I still have a lot of doubt that bending the disc is a positive test for anything, other then the malleability of the plastic used.


Perhaps you have a more violent vision of how I'm going about this than actually is happening. Hold a disc by it's edges with one hand, then slowly bend opposite ends towards each other. You are exerting extreme stress on the bonding material as you are forcing one part/side of the disc to bend disproportionately to the other, putting all the stress on the bonding itself to keep those 2 sides together. Basically an extreme test version of pulling a disc from a poor case. The fact it brakes is just continuing the test's to 100% failure.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:22 pm

Grain wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:I still have a lot of doubt that bending the disc is a positive test for anything, other then the malleability of the plastic used.


Perhaps you have a more violent vision of how I'm going about this than actually is happening. Hold a disc by it's edges with one hand, then slowly bend opposite ends towards each other. You are exerting extreme stress on the bonding material as you are forcing one part/side of the disc to bend disproportionately to the other, putting all the stress on the bonding itself to keep those 2 sides together. Basically an extreme test version of pulling a disc from a poor case. The fact it brakes is just continuing the test's to 100% failure.


But the stress you're applying to the disc will be essentially a horizontal stress won't it? As opposed to trying to pull the layers apart, you are almost forcing them to attempt to slide apart. I would imagine it would be MUCH more difficult for even a poorly bonded disc to slide apart.
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Postby Grain on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:15 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:But the stress you're applying to the disc will be essentially a horizontal stress won't it?


Correct. What I'm doing is even more severe than a worst case scenario of every day handling, where the most harshest test a disc may face is removal from those crap cases.

dolphinius_rex wrote:As opposed to trying to pull the layers apart, you are almost forcing them to attempt to slide apart. I would imagine it would be MUCH more difficult for even a poorly bonded disc to slide apart.


Your testing method is recreating the hub stress a disc also suffers when being removed from poor cases, perhaps also the wear and tear inflicted by the burner's/player's drive spindle being repeatedly inserted and removed during normal usage for reading/writing.

IMO both methods of testing are inflicting abuse not seen in "normal" every day use, but both give relevant insight into a discs bonded strength.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:09 pm

Grain wrote:IMO both methods of testing are inflicting abuse not seen in "normal" every day use, but both give relevant insight into a discs bonded strength.


I don't know, to me it seems like scanning a DVDR with a LiteON drive only, or scanning a DVDR with a BenQ drive only. For good discs you'll get the same results, but it'll take a REALLY bad disc for it to be noticable on both. The whole middle scale is completely ignored in the case of your testing method (and also LiteON scanning :P).
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Postby [buck] on Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:23 pm

Grain wrote:Correct. What I'm doing is even more severe than a worst case scenario of every day handling, where the most harshest test a disc may face is removal from those crap cases.


Unfortunatley, the problem poor bonding pose extend further than just physical durability. :(

Long term, it is suspected poor bonding might accelerated aging, perhaps due to small scale oxidization. RJW might have something to add. :wink:
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Postby Grain on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:10 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:The whole middle scale is completely ignored in the case of your testing method (and also LiteON scanning :P).


I certainly hope that your not trying to discredit my tests strictly because I've not telling you what you want to hear. There's no value in conducting questionaires if you've already written the conclusion. ie Trying to discredit my comments to your query is starting to sound like you have a personal issue with Taiyo Yuden, and are only interested in negative feedback to support your gripe.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:32 am

Grain wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:The whole middle scale is completely ignored in the case of your testing method (and also LiteON scanning :P).


I certainly hope that your not trying to discredit my tests strictly because I've not telling you what you want to hear. There's no value in conducting questionaires if you've already written the conclusion. ie Trying to discredit my comments to your query is starting to sound like you have a personal issue with Taiyo Yuden, and are only interested in negative feedback to support your gripe.


Nope, not at all. I just think your testing method is severely flawed. And for the record, I still use a LOT of Taiyo Yuden personally, and my company still goes through ~1 million discs a year or more. But I do already know about the majority of success stories, I could tell hundreds of thousands of them personally :wink:
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Postby swinokur on Mon May 01, 2006 7:41 pm

Hi there,

I have been using TYG03 media purchased from supermediastore, on a DW1640 (BSOB) drive for a while now. I've noticed that the last couple birthday cakes of media have had more coasters show up during nero 6's verification routine than before. I'm not sure if this is just indicitave of a single bad batch of media, or general "badness" in the 16x media. I thought that I would mention it though.

The media is the silver lauquer type, (non printable) - the media code is:


Code: Select all
00000000 00 6C 00 00 01 40 C1 FD 9E D8 52 00 02 84 0D 11 .l...@....R.....
00000010 66 78 90 00 03 54 59 47 30 33 00 00 04 00 00 00 fx...TYG03......
00000020 00 00 00 00 05 A8 82 00 20 00 02 00 06 09 09 15 ........ .......
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