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C't test results. burners.

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby dodecahedron on Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:50 am

Code: Select all
'                       DVD-R       DVD-R       DVD-R   
                        Maxell      Taiyo Yuden Verbatim
Modell +  Firmware                  (Fuji/TDK)  (MCC)   
                                                         
BenQ        B3B7        2.4         2.4         2.4     
DW-800A                 74 / +      87 / ++     87 / ++

was the test speed really 2.4x ???
i didn't think there's such a thing as 2.4x DVD-R/W !
and according to BenQ's website, the - firmware gives it 2x DVD-R/W speeds!
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:43 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
Halc wrote:both Pioneer 107 and NEC 2500 have "issues" even with quality media
...
LG 4801b was much better on many burns than I really expected

my thoughts exactly! i was surprised how well the LG did in comparison with some of the other drives.

LiteOn 811 is disappointing :(


Now that you guys mention it, LG did do well. Partly this is because it burned the 4x +R media at 4x, not 8x like most other drives. I suspect that this is the reason that - media show a better grade than the + media.

I'm also disappointed in the LiteOn. It's the one I've been looking at, esp. since LiteOn's are the only drives that work with KProbe for scanning the error counts

Incidentally, I'm not that happy with the "quality index", mainly because the exact definition is not available. It does seem to be dominated by the error rate (PI / PO) - it correlates reasonably well. I think that this is because excessive jitter or variation of the asymmetry will result in increased reading errors as well. Jitter (variation in pit length) and variation in the signal asymmetry (difference in mean signal level for short and long pits) should be independent of the drive used to make the measurements. The error rate depends on the drive and reading speed as well. It's too bad that only the latter can be determined in any reasonable way by people at home.

G
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:48 pm

dodecahedron wrote:was the test speed really 2.4x ???
i didn't think there's such a thing as 2.4x DVD-R/W !
and according to BenQ's website, the - firmware gives it 2x DVD-R/W speeds!

Yeah, that's what it says in the magazine. The burning time was ca. 25 min. and that fits too.

By the way, I've straightened up the tables a bit. It was late when I posted them.

G
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:53 pm

yeah, the LG did the 4x + media at 4x, so those results aren't really comparable with most of the other drives that did 4x media at 8x.

but in the 8x + and 4x - the LG did very well in comparison with other drives at the same speeds.

i too am disappointed at the Lite On drive, for the same reason you mentioned.

i am starting to think GSA-4082B...

i guess that (at least at this point in time) this means that you need to buy 2 DVD burners: 1 a burner (not a LiteOn) and a LiteOn for reading/testing.
but you need deep pockets :( :cry:
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One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
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Postby Halc on Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:12 pm

Heh,

I already have Optorite (DD0401) and LiteOn (DLW-851S) ONLY for testing and Plextor 708A for burning. And of course separate drives for CD-r testing (Plex Premium and LiteOn 52327S).

But now after having scoured the test results here, at other forums and at c't, I'm ready to sell my Plextor. Maybe I'll put it in my wife's Mac, she really needs dvd burner anyway.

And maybe I'll buy another Plex once (if ever) they release a DVD testing tool or a drive that truly is at the level of Plextor drives once were. Now the only reason I own Plextor is fond memories and testing tools (for Premium on CDs).

For now, I've set my sights on BenQ, LG and Pioneer. It's just a matter of selecting which one would be thest best compromise for day-to-day back-up and archival use (with hi-quality and medium-priced media).

To me, there is no single "best drive" on the market. They are all compromises to some extent (esp. if 8x burning is calculated into the equation).

And then there's the matter of the upcoming dual layer burners/media. I really dread that the quality will be abominable for the first few months though. Hopefully I'll be able to show constraint and skip the 1st generation altogether.

regards,
Halcy

PS Personally I'd love to buy a single 8x or 12x dual layer burner that was built like a tank, had native SATA II (with NCQ), came with 5 years of warranty and would be supported with firmware updates for at least two to three years. I'd be ready to plunk down 600USD for that, instead of buying a new one for 150USD every six months. I'm getting too old for that... :)
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:17 pm

Halc wrote:I already have Optorite (DD0401) and LiteOn (DLW-851S) ONLY for testing and Plextor 708A for burning. And of course separate drives for CD-r testing (Plex Premium and LiteOn 52327S).

lucky you...you've got deeper pockets than me :o :wink:
BTW did you buy UM Doctor ?
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Postby Halc on Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:29 am

dodeca,

no, not yet, but I'm planning to.

The trouble is that my CPU is broken, my motherboard has a corrupt Bios and I waited for my components for almost two months.

The drives are installed in my new test rig, I just miss the motherboard and the CPU.

Ah, the agony of waiting.

regards,
halcyon

PS BTW, I don't have deep pockets, but I have to make some investments to be able to finally complete what I planned to do two years ago...
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:44 am

Halc wrote:PS BTW, I don't have deep pockets, but I have to make some investments to be able to finally complete what I planned to do two years ago...


I know the feeling! People think I have a lot of money, but really I just have really wacky priorities!

"hrm, let's see, I could buy this really healthy good for me food... or this really cheap food *AND* these 50 CD-Rs I've never seen before..... CD-RS!!"

*OR*

"Hrm, I need another set of pants or two for work.... meh! I do *inside* sales for a reason, the pants can wait... I'm getting a new DVD burner!"
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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c't, the movie

Postby MediumRare on Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:23 pm

If you're interested in seeing part of a c't test, have a look at this video which is based on their 8x tests. I haven't checked it because I'm on a 56k dialup, but I saw their show on TV last weekend. If it's the same contribution, you can enjoy profound explanations such as:
- difference in 8x vs 4x burns (toaster vs waffle iron)
- basics of burning (blow torch melting disc)

Seriously, there is some meat there, even though there's a lot of show :roll:.

The movie is 6.2 MiB. More information (in German) and dates for broadcasts at http://www.heise.de/ct/tv/artikel/45150.

G
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Re: c't, the movie

Postby dodecahedron on Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:40 pm

MediumRare wrote:If you're interested in seeing part of a c't test, have a look at this video

what's up with this?
windows doesn't recognize the .lsc ending!
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Re: c't, the movie

Postby power dvd on Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:02 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
MediumRare wrote:If you're interested in seeing part of a c't test, have a look at this video

what's up with this?
windows doesn't recognize the .lsc ending!


maybe a stupid question, do you have real-player installed ?
The video plays okay here with real-player.
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:04 pm

no i don't.
but i may have had a long time ago (can't remember for sure), uninstalled and cleaned it out of the system as best i could (interfered with winamp i think).

what does it matter?
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Postby power dvd on Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:42 pm

dodecahedron wrote:no i don't.
but i may have had a long time ago (can't remember for sure), uninstalled and cleaned it out of the system as best i could (interfered with winamp i think).

what does it matter?


like i said, no problems with the video link with realplayer, i dunno if other players work too
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Postby jsl on Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:49 pm

Yeah it's a Real Video. Use Real Alternative if you don't want do install RealNetworks crappy player.
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Postby MediumRare on Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:27 pm

I keep seeing references to c't tests by people who probably haven't read them. Although I try my best to post a correct summary of what I think are the important results, this is secondary information. For those of you interested in the original article, individual items from c't are available for a fee after the following issue appears.

In particular, the article on 8x drives and media is now available here as a PDF file:
http://www.heise.de/kiosk/archiv/ct/2004/5/132
the price is 1.20 Euros. One of the 2 payments methods (via phone bill) is only viable in Germany. I don't know if the other (FIRSTGATE click&buy) is generally accessible.

G
who really appreciates c't but values other information, preferably not second hand.
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Postby jsl on Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:31 pm

MediumRare wrote:I don't know if the other (FIRSTGATE click&buy) is generally accessible.


Yes it works without problems. I've bought several of their articles and read them by copy-pasting into Babelfish :)
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Postby Ciryadin on Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:00 am

Hmmm...

Seems c't tested the DDW-081 with the oldest firmware possible :o ...
New Factory DDW-081's are BX31, probably BX32 soon
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New results from PC Magazin (GER) 5/2004

Postby Halc on Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:54 am

New results for "best media" from PC-Magazin (GER) 5/2004.

The magazine tested 12 DVD-R discs and 8 DVD+R discs. All were burnt
on 6 (DVD-R) or 7 (DVD+R) drives and measured for PI Sum 8, PIF, POF
and DC Jitter using professional DVD quality analyzer (CATS dvd analyzer).

I'm including here a SUMMARY ONLY. The whole eight page article / review is too big
to be included in it's entirety (not to mention probably illegal).

So, I'm only listing the BEST discs and BAD discs as selected by me.

As there are 20 burns from most drives in the test (12 x DVD-R +
8 x DVD+R) the test can also be used to assess drive burn quality.

I have summarized the overall DVD-R burner and DVD+R burner winners
as well.

I don't know which firmware versions were used for each drive (they
are not listed in the article).

DVDInfoPro was used to read media codes off the discs.

Tested discs were (in alphabetical order, not in order of quality):

DVD-R
=====
3A Media DVD-R 1-4x (VDSPMSAB)
Sky DVD-R 1x-4x (VDSPMSAB01)
3A Media 8x (3A0801)
Bulkpaq DVD-R 4x "cake" (prodiscS03)
DataWrite DVD-R 4X "cake" (AN32)
Intenso DVD-R 1x-4x (MCC01RG20)
Verbatim DVD-R Printable 4x (MCC01RG20)
Intenso DVD-R 1x-4x "cake" (OptodiscR004)
Leaddata DVD-R 4x "cake" (LEADDATA01)
Mam DVD-R 4x "cake" (MCI4XG01)
Maxell DVD-R 1-4x (TYG01)
Traxdata DVD-R 1-4x (RitekG04)

DVD+R
=====
3A Media DVD+R 1-4x (POMSC001)
Fujifilm DVD+R 4x (RicohJPNR01)
Intenso DVD+R 1x-4x "cake" (Optodisc04R)
Mmore DVD+R (MBIPG101R03)
Philips DVD+R 1-4X "cake" (CMC MAG F01)
Platinum DVD+R 4x "cake" (Ritek R02)
Verbatim DVD+R 1-4x (MCC002)
Verbatim DVD+R Advanced Azo 8x (MCC003)


Tested drives were (grouped by which burning standard was used):

DVD-R
=====
LG GSA-4081
LiteOn LDW-811s
Nec ND-2500A
Pioneer DVR-107D
Plextor PX-708A
Sony DRU-530

DVD+R
=====
BenQ DW-800
LG GSA-4081
LiteOn LDW-811s
Nec ND-2500A
Pioneer DVR-107D
Plextor PX-708A
Sony DRU-530


BEST DVD-R discs
================
Disc trade name (ID) Burns within standards with... / comments

1. Maxell DVD-R 1-4x (TYG01) All except Sony DRU-530 / superior quality / good jitter
2. 3A Media 8x (3A0801) All except LiteOn 811S & Sony DRU-530 / superior quality / ok jitter
3. Traxdata DVD-R (RitekG04) All except LiteOn 811s & Sony DRU-530 / good quality / very good jitter


WORST DVD-R discs
=================
Disc trade name (ID) Burns within standards with... / comments

- Bulkpaq DVD-R 4x (prodiscS03) LG-4801 / horrible jitter
- Sky DVD-R 1x-4x (VDSPMSAB01) Plextor PX-708A / jitter very variable
- DataWrite DVD-R 4X (AN32) LG / NEC / PLextor (barely) / POFs on all drives / jitter variable


BEST DVD+R discs
================
Disc trade name (ID) Burns within standards with... / comments

- 3A Media DVD+R 1-4x (POMSC001) All sans Sony / excellent quality / jitter within specs (sans LG / Sony)
- Fujifilm DVD+R 4x (RicohJPNR01) All sans LiteOn / very good quality / jitter variable
- Platinum DVD+R (Ritek R02) ALL! / excellent quality / jitter mostly within specs (sans LG, LiteOn & Sony)
- Verbatim DVD+R 1-4x (MCC002) All sans LiteOn / superior quality / jitter within specs (sans LiteOn, Pioneer & Sony)


WORST DVD+R discs
=================
Disc trade name (ID) Burns within standards with... / comments

- Verbatim DVD+RAdv.Azo8x(MCC003) BenQ, LG, Nec / good quality / too high jitter on all drives NOTE! This disc was burned at 8X by most drives. Other discs were burned at 2x or 4x
- Philips DVD+R 4X (CMC MAG F01) All sans LiteOn, Pioneer & sony / otherwise very good quality / jitter bit too high
- Mmore DVD+R (MBIPG101R03) All sans LiteOn, Plextor & Sony / otherwise very good quality jitter too high


BEST drives (grouped together, not in order of performance)
===========
- LG 4801 / only fails on VDSPMSAB01 (DVD-R), MCC01RG20 (DVD-R), OPTODISCR004 (DVD-R) and MCI4XG01 (DVD-R). Very good dual format drive, if you avoid the crappiest media
- BenQ DW-800A / excellent drive for DVD+R burning (just as LG4801). Now if only all burns had jitter within specs and this was a true 8x dual-format drive...


WORST drives (in order of performance as rated by me based on burn test results)
============
1. Sony DRU-530 / only really burns ok on Ritek R02 and MCC002 (both DVD+R). REally bad drive
2. LiteOn LDW-811s / only really burns good on TYG01 (DVD-R), Ritek G04 (DVD-R), POMSC001 (DVD+R) and Ritek R02 (DVD+R). IMHO, not a trustworthy drive.


As to the question: which is better Pioneer or Nec, I'd say Nec, but that's just my reading of the results.

I heartily recommend you go out and buy this magazine, if you are interested in RELIABLE and TRUSTED results for dvd media quality analysis.

regards,
halcyon
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Postby MediumRare on Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:09 pm

Halc,
thank you for pointing out this article and for making the excellent summary. In some ways, it's even better than the original article (which simply mentions a "LiteOn 811S" or a "NEC 2500" and not the full names).

Let me add a couple of bits of additional information:
- the magazine carried out the measurements at the beginning of March. The actual scans (present as PDFs on the enclosed CD) are dated 9-10 March. This may help to guess at firmware versions.
- the scans were carried out at the plant of 3A Media in Austria, which is probably one reason they included this media (available mainly in Austria to now).
- the general quality level is higher for "+" than for "-" media
- the Intenso DVD+R1-4x (OPTODISC0R4) is as "bad" as e.g. MMore. Properties similar to Philips/CMC.
- the LG burned half of the "-" media at 2x, which probably explains the better results, but is not what you want with 4x rated media :o

All told, the article was not as carefully done as the c't tests. In particular, the lack of firmware version is a big disadvantage. This issue also includes a well done general introduction to DVD technology and to general procedures and software for authoring movies.

G
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:15 pm

that's odd.... I found the Optodisc 4x DVD+R media to be pretty good, at least in my Pioneer running the hacked 1.10 firmware.
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Postby Vanderlow on Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:48 pm

Did they use any kind of scoring i.e. like a number or something? Do you think this magazine is available in the U.S.?
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Postby MediumRare on Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:12 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:that's odd.... I found the Optodisc 4x DVD+R media to be pretty good, at least in my Pioneer running the hacked 1.10 firmware.

Note that "bad" is in quotes. This media did well on 4 of 7 drives (PI Sum 8 <= 41 for the other drives), and produced a POF on the other 3. Unfortunately we don't know which firmware was used in the tests.
Vanderlow wrote:Did they use any kind of scoring i.e. like a number or something?

No- they "only" listed PI Sum 8, PIF, POF, DC-jitter mean and max values.
Vanderlow wrote:Do you think this magazine is available in the U.S.?

I think you'd have to look pretty hard. Your best bet would be an international news stand, e.g. at a major airport. It's not on the same league as c't either. They have a website: http://www.pc-magazin.de but only the table of contents of the current issue is present.

G
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a chaotic test

Postby MediumRare on Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:15 pm

Just in case you get the impression that all German computer magazines do super media tests with Audiodev CATS scans, let me point out a bad example. The latest issue 5/2004 of PC-Professionell (started as German edition of PC Magazine) has a "test" of 13 DVD+R 4x and 8x media. They rated these exclusively on the basis of physical measurements of the unburnt media (planarity etc.):o. The only concrete numbers presented were excentricity (Radial Run Out). They didn't explain how they determined the ranking.

Most of the article was devoted to discussing the results of one CATS scan per media type burned on one of 5 different burners. Their "conclusion": the media are good, but the drives' firmware(s) need work. :o

About the only concrete results are the combinations that worked OK:
- LiteOn LDW-811S (Fw HS0P) and Digital Disc Dessau 4x (DDDesauV20)
- LiteOn LDW-811S (Fw HS0P) and Moser Baer 4x (MBIPG101R3)
- Mitsumi DW 7872 TE (Fw 0054) and Taiyo Yuden 4x (YUDEN000T01)

The "qualitatively best 8x media" in the test, RITEK R03, produced POFs and a mean PI Sum 8 of 290 on the test burn with a Speer LDR8442 (Fw HSG6), a LiteOn OEM.

Mixed up diagrams, a disjointed layout and switched firmware versions are the icing on this chaotic cake.

G
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LG 4082

Postby faithfoo on Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:00 pm

1) SINCE the tests was done LG 4081 , I would presume that LG 4082 would be as good in terms of the chances of writing errors.


2) any TESTS DONE ON PANASONIC 9852 ? AND ANY disadvantages of panasonic 9852 that does not write R +
?

3) I never wrote any DVDs in my life ..should I now write in DVD RW + or DVD RW - ....

a)If I can afford DVD RAM , are there any known error issues in DVD RAM at 3x compared to DVD RW + or -
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Re: a chaotic test

Postby Halc on Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:17 am

I haven't seen the PC-Professionell article, but there is a sense in measuring unburnt discs.

When measured for wobble, radial specs and push-pull it is possible to draw some initial conclusions of the compatibility and quality of the media itself.

Of course, while it is possible to burn successfully even on media that has less than ideal low level measurement results, the resulting burn is still going to be worse than a good quality burn on a better quality blank.

So, that kind of testing has it's place (IMHO). It's a useful test as it tries to separate the media and the burner parts in the quality equation. Then again, it makes the results more theoretical (as opposed to pratical) as burn results are always the combination of the media and the burner.
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