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Testing DVD-media for longevity

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Testing DVD-media for longevity

Postby Halc on Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:32 am

Back from the dead...

I'm planning a short accelerated dvd media longevity test with a colleague of mine (or you could say he does the the testing, I do the analysis).

Anyway, with limited time and limited resources, I'm soliciting your help again on selecting media to test.

We're trying to find a best match between availability (locally and within EU) and popularity. Both assumed 'good' and 'bad' media will be chosen. One or two RW discs, one DL disc and the rest -R/+R discs. No -RAM discs will be tested.

I've been thinking of the following:

1. Plextor DVD+R (TY) 8X - widely available 'quality disc'
2. Verbatim DVD-R 16x (MCC 03RG20) *Taiwan very popular and widely available
3. Sony DVD-R tai +R (Sony) - widely available locally in stores
4. TDK DVD-R 8x (TTH02) - as above
5. Philips (CMC or Ritek or) - as above
6. LG DVD+R 8x (Prodisc R03) - an example of Prodisc, sold under many brands
? 7. fake TY DVD-R/DVD+R () - an example of faked TY disc
8. Budget DVD-R (Princo) - a really bad quality disc
9. Verbatim +RW (MCC) - most popular RW locally
10. Verbatim +R DL (MCC) - most widely available/popular DL
11. MAM-E:n DVD-R 8x (MCI) - possible hi-quality in longevity test?
12. Ricoh DVD+RW 8x (Ricoh) - possbily fairly tolerant RW
13. Maxell DVD-R 16x (MXL RG04) *Japan - easily available (locally) quality disc

*local=within FIN

Now, comments? Is there overlap? Do I run the risk of getting CMC in TDK MID codes? Are there huge known quality differences within each disc version currently (we can only test max 3 specimens from each disc type)? Anything you'd add or take away? Which fake TY (widely available/sold) would you pick?

I'd appreciate your thorough feedback as usual. I've been out of the loop mostly since last summer, when I finished my last big drive round up.

It was too traumatic to get back into the scanning game too soon afterwards (hundreds of tests + statistical analysis + 10 pages of text), but now I've slowly recovering and getting back into the game :)

best regards,
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:07 am

Hey Halc,

That sounds awesome!! I've got some comments on your list though:

1. Plextor DVD+R (TY) 8X - widely available 'quality disc'
Replace with Plextor 16x DVD+R - If we're going for a "Quality" disc, then this one should be better then 8x DVD+R

2. Verbatim DVD-R 16x (MCC 03RG20) *Taiwan very popular and widely available
Make sure you specify WHO the OEM is. MCC, CMC, or Prodisc (MBIL?)

3. Sony DVD-R tai +R (Sony) - widely available locally in stores
Again, specify whether Sony Made in Japan, Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD+R OEM, Daxon OEM, or Lead Data OEM

4. TDK DVD-R 8x (TTH02) - as above
VERY IMPORTANT, specify country of origin, *AND* true manufacturer

5. Philips (CMC or Ritek or) - as above
I'd recommend replacing this with RiData or TraxxData, get specifically 'A Grade' Ritek media.

6. LG DVD+R 8x (Prodisc R03) - an example of Prodisc, sold under many brands
Good choice! I'd like to see FUJIFILM03 or PRODISCF01 added as well if possible.

? 7. fake TY DVD-R/DVD+R () - an example of faked TY disc
Faked by who? MAM-E? Optodisc? Infosmart? Be Specific.

8. Budget DVD-R (Princo) - a really bad quality disc
REALLY good choice!

9. Verbatim +RW (MCC) - most popular RW locally
Go with 4x DVD+RW if possible

10. Verbatim +R DL (MCC) - most widely available/popular DL
Good choice, but also include RiData/Traxxdata DVD+RDL for comparison. A media format type BY ITSELF seems a little silly.

11. MAM-E:n DVD-R 8x (MCI) - possible hi-quality in longevity test?
*VERY IMPORTANT* Also include MAM-E Gold 4x DVD-Rs, I can help you get these if you need it.

12. Ricoh DVD+RW 8x (Ricoh) - possbily fairly tolerant RW
I would suggest 4x DVD+RW for comparison again Verbatim 4x DVD+RW... but whichever you get, get the same speed/type of both please.

13. Maxell DVD-R 16x (MXL RG04) *Japan - easily available (locally) quality disc
Good choice

My additions would be as follows:

14. Maxell Plus Series 8x DVD-R (MXL RG03) *Japan - Maxell's Professional Quality media with superior bonding to regulae (expected better results!) I can help you get these if needed

15. Acro Circle 8x DVD-R (OPTODISCR008) - Optodisc's A Grade 8x DVD-Rs, has shown excellent bonding, and good archival potential in the past, should make a good comparison against A Grade Ritek and Prodisc. I can probably help you get these if needed.

16. Emtec Gold DVD+R (Made by MPO) - Should make a good comparison against MAM-E's Gold DVD-Rs.

How does that sound?

Also, I'm curious as to how the discs will be tested?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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Postby Jim on Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:46 pm

You could consider 4X Sony DVD+RW with the Made in Japan code SONYS11 as a baseline quality +RW media for the tests. I'm not sure of its availability in Europe but it is available here in North America.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:56 pm

Jim wrote:You could consider 4X Sony DVD+RW with the Made in Japan code SONYS11 as a baseline quality +RW media for the tests. I'm not sure of its availability in Europe but it is available here in North America.


Generally speaking, if there is a Japanese made product of a major brand name available in North America, then it'll be available in Europe (Unless there is a massive quality issue with the product!). Europe always gets the good stuff first :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby Halc on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:37 pm

Thanks for the detailed comments.

This being a consumer test for a consumer magazine, we can only specify brands and 'models' of discs. I wish we'd have something the equivalent of c't magazine here, but we don't. So, we simplify. It's impossible to specify make, serial numbers or even MID codes.

Of course, in our public forum discussion of the results, we can do this.

That's why I'm hoping to narrow the research a bit into brands that hopefully don't use a zillion different suppliers/manufacturers across identical model/MID-codes/packaging materials. I know, difficult...

At the same time we also have to look at the availability of the stuff locally.

Now, I'll look at the comments specifically:

1. Plextor DVD+R (TY) 8X - widely available 'quality disc'
Replace with Plextor 16x DVD+R - If we're going for a "Quality" disc, then this one should be better then 8x DVD+R


Plextor DVD 16X is scarcely available here :( I see what I can do.

5. Philips (CMC or Ritek or) - as above
I'd recommend replacing this with RiData or TraxxData, get specifically 'A Grade' Ritek media.


For my personal test, I'd do that. However, people by certain type of Philips here (not sure yet which is the most popular), not RiData and very few Traxxdata.

I wish I can find a popular brand locally that is Grade A Ritek, but haven't found yet.

[/quote]
? 7. fake TY DVD-R/DVD+R () - an example of faked TY disc
Faked by who? MAM-E? Optodisc? Infosmart? Be Specific.

To be honest, I don't really care :)

I'm trying to find a fake that is widely popular in German webshops and is of truly bad quality.

It'd show people the difference between a real TY and a fake TY.

Remember, this is an ordinary consumer test. We can't confuse them with ID-codes, OEM info, serial numbers, batch identifiers, etc. They go crazy if we do that.

The problem is: how do we give relatively sane recommendations under the current 'wild west' situation where you can only trust a couple of brands, if even them :(

9. Verbatim +RW (MCC) - most popular RW locally
Go with 4x DVD+RW if possible


Thanks, will consider that. I'll have to see, what's the most popularly available choice.

10. Verbatim +R DL (MCC) - most widely available/popular DL
Good choice, but also include RiData/Traxxdata DVD+RDL for comparison. A media format type BY ITSELF seems a little silly.


I'd rather not take DL at all, as people here don't really buy them (still way too expensive, esp. after DVD-R taxes). But I'm forced to pick one, so I pick the most common one.

11. MAM-E:n DVD-R 8x (MCI) - possible hi-quality in longevity test?
*VERY IMPORTANT* Also include MAM-E Gold 4x DVD-Rs, I can help you get these if you need it.


I'll see what I can do. It may be that I only can get my hands on the 4x media as the local importer is completely out of stock.

12. Ricoh DVD+RW 8x (Ricoh) - possbily fairly tolerant RW
I would suggest 4x DVD+RW for comparison again Verbatim 4x DVD+RW... but whichever you get, get the same speed/type of both please.


Again, I'd rather not take RW at all, but am forced to pick one (by the editor). So, again - I try to please the masses and I choose the most popular one locally :)

14. Maxell Plus Series 8x DVD-R (MXL RG03) *Japan - Maxell's Professional Quality media with superior bonding to regulae (expected better results!) I can help you get these if needed


It'd be interesting to test this personally! Unfortunately it's not available here at all and as such, excluded from a mass appeal test.

15. Acro Circle 8x DVD-R (OPTODISCR008) - Optodisc's A Grade 8x DVD-Rs, has shown excellent bonding, and good archival potential in the past, should make a good comparison against A Grade Ritek and Prodisc. I can probably help you get these if needed.

16. Emtec Gold DVD+R (Made by MPO) - Should make a good comparison against MAM-E's Gold DVD-Rs.


These are new & interesting for me. I haven't seen them locally, but will try to source them.

Thanks again for the comments.

My problem, as you may have noticed, is the limitation of what is useful to an ordinary customer.

I have to pick the brands that are most available here locally and what most people buy, with a couple of not so popular good ones thrown in for comparison.

This way, we can hopefully show which ones of the popular discs are fairly tolerant and which aren't, as well as which non-popular good discs might be good alternatives.

The trouble is, dumbing this down without resorting to MIDs, OEM info, batch numbers, Made In information, packaging graphics and rest of the identification data, which keeps changing even before the story goes into circulation....

Now that's a challenge :)

Please chime in with additional comments if something pops into your head.

cheers,
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Postby RJW on Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:23 am

First comments from my hands

1 Squeezing in the MID should be possible. ANy dutch/german magazine can even the one who base there rating on the CDSPEED quality score !
If you don't do this then I can recommend you to only use brands that are consistant when it comes to there product or else (WARNING: I'm going to be rude here ! :o) I think you can call it page filling what you do.
I will post later a list with constistant (or close to consistant ) products.

2 There's is some 8x discontinued media on it.
The question is should you test media that might nog longer be available when you publish.
Other problem is if you choose 16x media and your stores have still a very large stock of 8x media and suddenly the companny decides to switch manufacturers for there volume production. (FUJI 16x DVD+R !)

3 Also incase of consistancy fake media will be a problem. Because each manufacturer likes to switch there codes now and then.
Best option probally would be to got with MAM-E's TY when it comes to consistant product. But there is the problem that it's likely to be not as crap as infosmart and your warning might not work.(Infact if MAM-E uses the same dye as there normal 8x media then I think there's a change they might outperform TY. )- Infosmart and Optodisc officially stopped abusing TY code !!

4 TTH02 ->16x TDK. TTG02 ->8x TDK TTH01 -> 8x TDK (scratchguard,printable. (Stuff made by MAM-E/TDK luxembourg !))
So which one do you mean.

5 ALso sony DVD-R +R what's that one ?? IS it dual format. ;)

6 I suggest to leave out any rewritable format because of there behaviour !

7 Also a single format for dual layer is a joke ! Even if the popularity is not there yet. (Seeing that the prices for dual layer have dropped much in the last 2 months in the rest of europe. I think that you might still have to see the price drop because of slow sales. )

Also if it's about formats then you should also take Dual layer -R and DVD-RAM (cartridge and non cartridge based !) and DVD-RW.
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Postby RJW on Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:29 am

consistant product list these are based on the products available in Europe !!

Ricoh +R -> RICOHJPN code (MBIL/RITEK made but it's RICOH specifications)

*RICOH +R silver edition -> MBIL
*RICOH -R -> CMC MAGNETICS

Traxdata.
8x and 16x and dual layer +R/-R disc's all Ritek

Acrocircle
8x and 16x is all optodisc

verbatim
16x is all MCC specification. Dual layer is even all MCC made (Still)

Be-all
Be-all made

Benq 16x
Daxon code and made

TDK scratchproof stuff
All made according to TDK specs and have TDK codes.

Plextor
All recordables Guaranteed TY.

MMORE 16x +R
MBIL

Princo
Princo DVD-R *(Note better use princo as budget because some budget batches are infosmart !)

MAM-E
GOLD DVD-R has MAM-E code

HISPACE/MPO/EMTEC gold
GOLD DVD-R has MPO code

So far so good:(but changes can be expected)

Maxel 16x all MAxell code
FUJI 16x new packages so far all Prodisc made
Philips 16x +R new packages so far all infomedia

Quite safe:
Sony most european media has sony code but on occasions you can encounter a different code !
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Postby [buck] on Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:00 pm

RJW wrote:Maxel 16x all MAxell code
FUJI 16x new packages so far all Prodisc made
Philips 16x +R new packages so far all infomedia


Here in Canada, at least some Maxell 16X DVD+Rs are crappy PHILIPS C16. Everything i've heard about Fujifilm 16X DVD-R indicates they are RITEKF1 (they may be "old" packages), and the Philips 16X DVD+R in Canada also seems to be all CMC MAG M01.

This is probably all irrelevent to the European market, but that's not for me to know! :P
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Postby RJW on Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:01 pm

Yes in america you can find some early maxell batches with PhilipsC16 code. But philipsc16 is discontinued !
In America Fuji 16x media is mostly ritek and on a few exceptional cases Prodisc.
And the Philips +R media should be CMC in America !

Different products on different markets.
Sooner or later paralel import or the compannies itself might move stuff so it changes that's why it says so far so good and that changes can be expected.

I do have to make one exception in FUJI europe case. The supposed labelflash disc's will be RitekF01 !
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Postby Halc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:43 am

RJW wrote:1 Squeezing in the MID should be possible.


Yes, we can do that, it's always more convenient for the active hobbyist that way.

HOWEVER, and I'm only going to say this one more time.

Ordinary customers, who are even more important in my own opinion (because they lack knowledge) are the toughest bunch to help, but that's who we are trying to cater for:

1) No 4 page article is going to ever to teach them all tricks of the fake codes, switching factories, how to analyse, where to read, which forums to hang out in, etc. It's just not realistic.

2) These people need simple rules as to what to buy from the stuff that is available to them. Even if it's not always 100% spot-on, it's better than a random sampling. Not recommendations for stuff that they never see in the store. Hopefully not too many recommendations for stuff that is good today, crap tomorrow.

Now, let's not be elitistic, but try to help the ordinary joe. He want's his grandchildren's photos to last until they grow up. Which of the discs available to him in the ordinary shops (not mail order from another country) should he put his trust on for the next couple of years, until the next article comes out?

As we know, it's a difficult challenge (due to constant switching by brand owners), but that's exactly why I'm asking for your knowledge and help on the issue :)

If you don't do this then I can recommend you to only use brands that are consistant when it comes to there product or else (WARNING: I'm going to be rude here ! :o)


That's exactly what I'm after.

Most consistent quality brands.

BUT with the additional difficulty factor: available in Finland!

I know, it's tough :)

I think you can call it page filling what you do.


I hope you know me better than think that I'd resort to that :)

Don't take me for an average cdfreaks moron, please :)

2 There's is some 8x discontinued media on it.


Very good point. I'll revise the list as I learn more.

I'll just have to try and guess, which ones will be replaced and by which exact disc models AND where I can source those
discs, before they are available here.

Your info on this would be very helpful.

3 Also incase of consistancy fake media will be a problem.


Yes agreed again.

However, the point is to give a warning example to the average customer: if you order 'quality' stuff from an unkown retailer, which sells the stuff for way too low price, you may get this: <fill in results for the really bad fake TY>

That's all I want to accomplish with the fake.

The fact that fakes can sometimes be of varying quality, is of no interest to me (within the scope of this article).

It's important for the average joe to understand, that if he saves all his precious dv-films on crappiest dvd he got off some no-name middle-european webshop for 0.000001cents a piece, then all bets are off. Regardless of whatever the shops says the stuff is made of.

You know, us Finns are a little bit simple like that. If somebody tells us X is X, we believe them.

4 TTH02 ->16x TDK. TTG02 ->8x TDK TTH01 -> 8x TDK (scratchguard,printable. (Stuff made by MAM-E/TDK luxembourg !))
So which one do you mean.


I wasn't that far yet. I went to the stores yesterday, to pick up the stuff. This requires actually walking around in the physical stores and sampling what's available, what's most sold, etc. Takes time you know :)

This is probably the second most available and popular stuff here locally:

TDK DVD-R 8x, item code on the back of the packaging: DVD-R47EC, MID: TTG02, inner-hub stamped serial: MAH646JI06032815 1 / DVD-R 5224A2, NO "Made in" information available anywhere on the packaging. Sold as jewel case packaged discs in cardboard packs of 10.
Looks like this: http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image ... xjc3kx.jpg

However, now I'm not sure, if it'll be replaced soon (as per your comments). I've yet to hear from the local importer.

6 I suggest to leave out any rewritable format because of there behaviour !


<sigh> You should have guessed what discussion I already had with the editor. I have to pick one, so I pick one and make the least worst out of a forced situation.

7 Also a single format for dual layer is a joke ! Even if the popularity is not there yet. (Seeing that the prices for dual layer have dropped much in the last 2 months in the rest of europe. I think that you might still have to see the price drop because of slow sales. )


RJW, life is a compromise. I'm not c't magazine.

This is mostly coming out of MY OWN pocket. I have a separate day-job too :)

I'd rather not test DL at all, because people do not use it here and even when they start to use it, I assume it'll perhaps be max. 20% of all discs sold, unless it drops to exact same price as SL within the next two years (hardly likely). And in two years, the results of the test are out-of-date and there needs to be a new test anyway...

Please do understand that this is a test not done for myself, you and dolphinius_rex, but for a wider audience, trying to help the average joe today.

The people who are really into this stuff and can spend hours in forums, can read c't like I do. The rest don't even know c't exists!

I do appreciate all your comments though. I'm just trying to paint a picture of the context of the test and article.

Also if it's about formats then you should also take Dual layer -R and DVD-RAM (cartridge and non cartridge based !) and DVD-RW.


Again, it's not that I disagree, but with very limited resources, I place my resources where they belong: pick battles large enough to matter, small enough to win.

I try not to make it about formats. I'll try to paint a picture of the most sold discs (which are +/-R SL, NOT RW, NOT RAM, NOT DL).

- a most likely 'good' disc out of the ones available here (if tests show really good results)
- an uncertain quality of phase change in general (with one example, because I'm forced to)
- the problem with fakes (they can be really bad)
- the worst examples of the popular discs (if tests show really bad results of course)

I still don't know how to handle the DL issue. I have no idea yet. I hope something will come to me in the process of testing.

Test is SL -R/+R, because that's what people buy. In addition one DL one +RW, not because I want, but because I have to. And I agree, it's a compromise. Life is.

consistant product list these are based on the products available in Europe !!


Great list, thanks!

I really appreciate all your knowledge and posts on the issue. Keep'em coming and be rude if necessary :)

As for all the other discs, I've yet to decide on the exact specifics (like which Sony to use). It has to be the one the most commonly availble and most sold. I still haven't found out this data for all discs yet. More details later.

best regards,
halcyon
Last edited by Halc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Halc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:48 am

Also, I'm curious as to how the discs will be tested?


Sorry, this went unnoticed by me earlier.

Timed exposure in controlled raised relative humidity and absolute temp (specifics still being decided upon). The run will be a fairly short one (probably less than 48 hours).

Earlier tests by my colleague indicate that while this may be too short to show all long-term effects, it's more than enough to already to start separate the discs from each other in terms of aging performance. Also, this is the timespan we can do, so we have to live with it.

I'm still toying around with an idea of UV radiation exposure test, but this would have to be home-brew. I have no access to metal-halide, spectrum controlled UV baking machines. It'd have to be neon fixture, controlled UVA/UVB/UVC exposure for max. 48 hours in home settings, using a rough measure of exposure power. Just to see, how the discs react to UV, if at all.

We won't be using arrhenius formula on this, as we have a fairly short exposure time and non-absolute control for the UV test.

Still, it's better than having nothing.

regards,
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Postby dodecahedron on Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:27 am

Halc wrote:Don't take me for an average cdfreaks moron, please :)
LOL :D

i wish you luck with your undertaking.

will the article be in Finnish? will there be an English version?
if so will it be possible for you to post it here @ CDRLabs ?
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie
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Postby RJW on Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:57 am

Halc wrote:
RJW wrote: I think you can call it page filling what you do.


I hope you know me better than think that I'd resort to that :)
Don't take me for an average cdfreaks moron, please :)


I know but sometimes I do seem people make some weird compromises when it comes to articles.

2 There's is some 8x discontinued media on it.


Very good point. I'll revise the list as I learn more.

8x TY will be replaced.(If you need 16x samples let me know !)
8x Philips is no longer distributed through philips !
8x TDK will slowly be phased out.

TDK DVD-R 8x, item code on the back of the packaging: DVD-R47EC, MID: TTG02, inner-hub stamped serial: MAH646JI06032815 1 / DVD-R 5224A2, NO "Made in" information available anywhere on the packaging.

It's CMC made with AZO pigment and TDK stamper.
6 I suggest to leave out any rewritable format because of there behaviour !


<sigh> You should have guessed what discussion I already had with the editor. I have to pick one, so I pick one and make the least worst out of a forced situation.

Seems you have zero choice then so in that case I can only say be very carefull with the formulation. Specially if this disc will give you the best results in this test which is quite good possible. And then you suddenly receive a lot of mail in less then a year of people who can not read the great scoring rewritables !
I know editors can be quite problematic.
7 Also a single format for dual layer is a joke ! Even if the popularity is not there yet. (Seeing that the prices for dual layer have dropped much in the last 2 months in the rest of europe. I think that you might still have to see the price drop because of slow sales. )

This is mostly coming out of MY OWN pocket. I have a separate day-job too :)

Hmm if testing capacity is not the problem and it's just the limitation of the funds. Then it should be no problem to arrange something !.

I'd rather not test DL at all, because people do not use it here and even when they start to use it, I assume it'll perhaps be max. 20% of all discs sold, unless it drops to exact same price as SL within the next two years (hardly likely). And in two years, the results of the test are out-of-date and there needs to be a new test anyway...

Not testing means that we would missing some data and seeing more and more questions arround about if dual layer disc's could be used for archiving I think it's a good idea to have more as on sample.

Please do understand that this is a test not done for myself, you and dolphinius_rex, but for a wider audience, trying to help the average joe today.

And for that reason I think you should at least take 2 dual layer disc's. A lot of people like to go cheap because of the allready high price which means they will buy Ritek dual layer.

If it was for me I would say anything you can get and I can provide you with and you could test in a normal time frame.
:lol:

So can we agree that if I can provide you with samples of Ritek Dual Layer (Probally Traxdata branded ) they can be tested a long with the verbatim dual layer ? That is if there are no capacity problems when it comes to testing the other media.
Last edited by RJW on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RJW on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:03 am

One more.
I think you can exclude the UV test because most folks do know how to store there media right which means the influence of UV has become neglectible. Unless finish people have different idea's as Dutch people. :D

Also it's better to say something about the relative stabilities as to interpolate these data with the arhennius data. People might get the wrong idea and for a good explanation of the stuff to the average Joe it will take quite some space while there aren't any real advantages of having it interpolated !
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Postby jsl on Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:44 pm

RJW wrote:Philips 16x +R new packages so far all infomedia

Some new European Philips 16x DVD+Rs appears to be RITEK-R05 media too.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:12 pm

I'm curious, what burner (or burners) will the media be recorded on?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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Postby RJW on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:07 pm

So Ritek has finally put RitekR05 on the market. Interresting.
I'm a little bit suprised that the Philips drive on that topic you linked to has problems with it.
WHy ?
Well one RitekR05 is Philips approved.
Well so far the info I got suggest that there better suported as R04.
Also I don't think that choice to use RitekR04 was optimal.

But this means we can remove Philips as safe choice. It was allready put on the so far so good list because I expected that MBIL, RItek or CMC probally would make something sooner or later for pHilips.
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Postby Halc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:31 pm

RE: to-be-replaced media.

<sigh>

I just bought packs of TDK and some others. Oh well, I can always use them for my own throwaway stuff :)

RE: Funds & testing capability

Both are an issue. Funds for me and testing capability for my colleague. I can't divulge more, but this is pretty much "ad hoc".

RW & DL media
I'm actually trying one final time to argue to the editors to leave them out. Too marginal here, imho. Yes, they'd be interesting, but capacity is limited. To be honest, I'd rather pick two CD-R discs than a DL and an RW. CD-R discs still outsell DVD recordable media here.

dolphinius_rex wrote:I'm curious, what burner (or burners) will the media be recorded on?


I haven't yet decided.

My logic is as follows:

- pick the most common writers in use and for sale locally now (hopefully from a long running series of burners that have been popular for a while and will likely be so in the future)
- use the latest official firmware, no hacks. People here are fairly up-to-date on the need to update firmware, although I wonder if the average joe really does it.

Based on this logic, the following three burner manufacturers will cover 80-90% of the dvd burner market here (i.e. what people have in their machines). In parentheses I've included the most likely model to use (i.e. what I have myself):

- LG (GSA-4167B) - the most sold dvd burner brand in Finland for quite a time
- Nec (ND-4551A) - probably the second most sold, if all the rebrands & repackages are included
- BenQ (DW1640) - the fastest rising seller for the past 8 months or so

LiteOn here is not nearly as popular as in some other places (still, it would probably be the fourth choice on the list of burners). Plextor is bought by serious hobbyists only. Samsung is quite marginal. Pioneer as well. The rest of the brands even combined together are very marginal.

So, it'll probably be the three burners above. Each disc type will be burned by three burners.

Then all the discs will be measure by three readers (as of yet undecided, but probably Plextor 716, Liteon 1693, BenQ 1640 and/or Nec 4551). The results will be scaled, roughly grouped and given quality indicators.

That is, unless you gentlemen have better suggestions :)

Thanks again for the comments!

cheers,
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:04 pm

I'll do what I can to help with the media, which in turn should keep your budget more reasonable. I'll start making phone calls tomorrow when people are listening available to be talked to :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby RJW on Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:17 am

Update on the philips.
There is also MBIL 16x PHilips +R media.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=163239
And according to some people also CMC.
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Postby Halc on Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:31 pm

I just got:

- Philips DVD-R 16x (RitekF1) / Taiwan / slim case
- Philips DVD+R 16x (MBIPG101) / India / slim case
- Sony DVD-R 8x (Sony 08D1) / country ? /bulk spindle
- MAM-E 4x DVD-R (MAM4XG02) / country ? / bulk spindle

I'm assuming the 16x Philips discs won't be phased out that soon, but they might change factories for all I know.

MAM-E I can't get in 8x anywhere. Sony 16x seems to be non-existent (is it even out yet)?

Also, I can't seem to be able to find the safe-temperature range for phthalocyanine in my doc archive. I'm sure I've seen it, but my searches are now drawing zippo results.

This is important for the aging test temperature safety range.

Anybody have this data in their docs that they have available? I must keep digging in my own archives otherwise.
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Postby RJW on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:58 pm

Halc wrote:I just got:

- Philips DVD-R 16x (RitekF1) / Taiwan / slim case
- Philips DVD+R 16x (MBIPG101) / Intia / slim case
- Sony DVD-R 8x (Sony 08D1) / bulk spindle
- MAM-E 4x DVD-R (MAM4XG02) / bulk spindle

I'm assuming the 16x Philips discs won't be phased out that soon, but they might change factories for all I know.

Yep Philips started with PHILIPS C16 then we got infomedia for a long time. ANd now the newer stuff is Ritek, MBIL and CMC.
So much of reliability.

MAM-E I can't get in 8x anywhere. Sony 16x seems to be non-existent (is it even out yet)?

Yes Sony is out yet but the 16x media is quite scare.
MAM-E 8x media probally has TY(abuse) or TDK(official) code. The own code disc's are very rare these days ! (Oh and 16x +R abuses MCC code !)

Also, I can't seem to be able to find the safe-temperature range for phthalocyanine in my doc archive. I'm sure I've seen it, but my searches are now drawing zippo results.

Hmm that one is tricky. Pthalocyanine is a group name. Change some groups in the molecule and it might behave (slightly) different.
ALso no current DVD media uses pthalocyanine as far as I know.
This is important for the aging test temperature safety range.

I don't think so your probally want the stability of cyanine, oxonol and AZO dye's to base your temperature on.

Some rough info.
I thougth the laser heat was above 200 degrees C. So it has to be lower
rewritables use a temperature of 500-700 degrees C if I'm right for the liquidization. So it looks like ANSI cd-r's lines are okay (80 degrees C).

Anybody have this data in their docs that they have available? I must keep digging in my own archives otherwise.

Not available at this moment.

I don't think that there is a standard yet for DVD media. It seems that people so far have mostly decided to use the same conditions as for CD-R stated in the ANSI documents.

While the following info is really old cd-r stuff it does show the interesting point about hygroscopisity which you have to take into account.

http://ikrweb.uni-muenster.de/aptdir/ak ... edien.html

Ohh and one other thing will the media be tested in it's case or withouth ?
Because of plastifiers and other components that could have a significant influence.
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Postby RJW on Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:18 pm

RJW wrote:
Halc wrote:I just got:

- Philips DVD-R 16x (RitekF1) / Taiwan / slim case
- Philips DVD+R 16x (MBIPG101) / Intia / slim case
- Sony DVD-R 8x (Sony 08D1) / bulk spindle
- MAM-E 4x DVD-R (MAM4XG02) / bulk spindle

I'm assuming the 16x Philips discs won't be phased out that soon, but they might change factories for all I know.

Yep Philips started with PHILIPS C16 then we got infomedia for a long time. ANd now the newer stuff is Ritek, MBIL and CMC.
So much of reliability.

MAM-E I can't get in 8x anywhere. Sony 16x seems to be non-existent (is it even out yet)?

Yes Sony is out yet but the 16x media is quite scare.
MAM-E 8x media probally has TY(abuse) or TDK(official) code. The own code disc's are very rare these days ! (Oh and 16x +R abuses MCC code !)

Sony 16x media is out but only in very small numbers based on the current information it seems that sony will sell 8x media for some time still.


Also, I can't seem to be able to find the safe-temperature range for phthalocyanine in my doc archive. I'm sure I've seen it, but my searches are now drawing zippo results.

Hmm that one is tricky. Pthalocyanine is a group name. Change some groups in the molecule and it might behave (slightly) different.
ALso no current DVD media uses pthalocyanine as far as I know.
This is important for the aging test temperature safety range.

I don't think so your probally want the stability of cyanine, oxonol and AZO dye's to base your temperature on.

Some rough info.
I thougth the laser heat was above 200 degrees C. So it has to be lower
rewritables use a temperature of 500-700 degrees C if I'm right for the liquidization. So it looks like ANSI cd-r's lines are okay (80 degrees C).

Anybody have this data in their docs that they have available? I must keep digging in my own archives otherwise.

Not available at this moment.

I don't think that there is a standard yet for DVD media. It seems that people so far have mostly decided to use the same conditions as for CD-R stated in the ANSI documents.

While the following info is really old cd-r stuff it does show the interesting point about hygroscopisity which you have to take into account.

http://ikrweb.uni-muenster.de/aptdir/ak ... edien.html

Ohh and one other thing will the media be tested in it's case or withouth ?
Because of plastifiers and other components that could have a significant influence.
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Postby Halc on Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:45 am

RJW wrote:Yep Philips started with PHILIPS C16 then we got infomedia for a long time. ANd now the newer stuff is Ritek, MBIL and CMC.
So much of reliability.

Yes, this is indeed a problem for us. Let's see what we can do.

Yes Sony is out yet but the 16x media is quite scare.
MAM-E 8x media probally has TY(abuse) or TDK(official) code. The own code disc's are very rare these days ! (Oh and 16x +R abuses MCC code !)


I'm really having second doubts including MAM-E. It's availability here in it's current form is coming more scarce, I have no new version of it availble to me and even that is with MID-abuse and hence from various manufacturing lines (?).

Not available at this moment.


Thanks for all the info above (cut out). I'll look more into it. We'll probably use the same baseline as other studies I've read.

Ohh and one other thing will the media be tested in it's case or withouth ?
Because of plastifiers and other components that could have a significant influence.


This is a good point and I have been thinking about it. However, as I don't have good data for baking results for the cases alone, I'm going to leave them out. That is, aging with naked discs.

This is to rule out odd factors caused by high temp/humidity to the cases, which would not necessarily happen otherwise.

Also, I don't have provision for pH testing of the plasticisers effect, so as I can't control it, I'll have to leave it out from the test. I'll write about it in the article though, on a general level (referring to tests already done).

However, we'll probably test a couple of discs in a Corrosion Intercept sleeves, to see if it helps any.

Thanks again for all the comments.

regards,
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Postby RJW on Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:57 pm

Thanks for all the info above (cut out). I'll look more into it. We'll probably use the same baseline as other studies I've read.


I don't know how much time there is left. But if it's not befor the end of February then I probally could try to search up the data at univesity. Currently to busy with studying !

Ohh and one other thing will the media be tested in it's case or withouth ?
Because of plastifiers and other components that could have a significant influence.


This is a good point and I have been thinking about it. However, as I don't have good data for baking results for the cases alone, I'm going to leave them out. That is, aging with naked discs.

This is to rule out odd factors caused by high temp/humidity to the cases, which would not necessarily happen otherwise.

Also, I don't have provision for pH testing of the plasticisers effect, so as I can't control it, I'll have to leave it out from the test. I'll write about it in the article though, on a general level (referring to tests already done).

Even rough pH-paper as used in some tests would do. It shouldn't be a problem to fix it. But still it's a question if it's good to test because not all people store there disc's in cases. If you have sampling capacity left then it might be nice to test one or 2 disc's in there cases to see if the behaviour can be seen. But that can only be done if the burn quality was quite equall with the non cased version and the media also doesn't show huge material differences. (Example Bad vs good bonded !)

However, we'll probably test a couple of discs in a Corrosion Intercept sleeves, to see if it helps any.


It's a shame Emtec/Hispace/MPO distribution sucks for there gold media because under the current conditions I think you might find them to rare. Still if you want to test them let me know for the test and I will fix you some samples.
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