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Understanding the "Pluses" and "Minuses"

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Understanding the "Pluses" and "Minuses"

Postby YrbkMgr on Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:31 am

Guys, I'm brand new to DVD burning, having gotten my first burner bundled with a system I bought at Christmas. It seems the more I read, the more confused I get so I'm hoping that someone will help me understand a few things. I know a lot about CD-R burning, as I burn about 10,000 discs per year; but I bought a DVD burner with my system as my entrée into DVDs.

I have NOT by the way, done a thorough search of the forum, as I'm not sure which search terms would give me the best results; with that in mind, if this has been beaten to death, I'll take my lumps, just point me where to go, if you know.

Here's what I want to do - back up a couple of movies that I've purchased but mostly back up data. My DVD burner is listed as an 8x Double-Layer Multi-Format DVD Writer (DVD±R/±RW); NeroInfo Tool reports the write speed as 16X. Here's a little info from InfoTool:

=====================
Nero InfoTool 2.27

Drive Information
------------------
Drive : TSSTcorp CD/DVDW TS-H552B
Type : DVD±R/RW DL Recorder
Firmware Version : GA02
Buffer Size : 2 MB
Date : ?
Serial Number : TS-H552BFirmware
Vendor Specific : 0910
Drive Letter : J:\
Location : 0:0
Mechanism : Tray
Read Speed : 48 X
Write Speed : 16 X

Read CD Text : Yes
Return C2 Pointers : Yes
Read CD-R : Yes
Read CD-RW : Yes
Read DVD-ROM : Yes
Read DVD-RAM : No
Read DVD-R : Yes
Read DVD-RW : Yes
Read DVD+R : Yes
Read DVD+RW : Yes
Read DVD+R DL : Yes
Read Digital Audio : Yes
Read CD+G : No
Read VideoCD : Yes

Write CD-R : Yes
Write CD-RW : Yes
Write DVD-R : Yes
Write DVD-RW : Yes
Write DVD+R : Yes
Write DVD+RW : Yes
Write DVD+R DL : Yes
Write DVD-RAM : No
Buffer Underrun Protection : Yes
Mount Rainier : No
Modes : Packet, TAO, DAO, SAO, RAW SAO, RAW SAO 16, RAW SAO 96, RAW DAO 16, RAW DAO 96

=============

So here are my questions...

1. When do I need to consider DVD-R media versus DVD+R?

2. I've read that some TV Top DVD players only support one or the other, sometimes both. Is there a way to tell what a particular player will support?

3. The description of the drive in the Sales Description (receipt) says that it's Dual Layer and 8x, yet Nero reports it as being 16X. I don't care so much about speed (today), but I want to be able to buy the right media for a particular task; can anyone shed light on this?

4. Related to #3 above, I heard somewhere that if you want to backup a movie you've purchased, that you need dual layer because of the amount of data on movie disks. Is this true?

5. If most of my goals are about data backup (clearly wanting to keep as few disks as possible to reduce disk management issues), should I be considering Dual Layer media? It seems pretty pricey today.

6. Today, I can duplicate a CD easily - will I be able to back up movies just as easily, or are there some hoops (DVD Shrink for example) that I have to go through?

7. Why is the region code of concern to some folks? I mean, if it's a backup of a movie you own, do you care if it plays in Afghanistan?

I want to buy some media and start, but the whole DVD-R v. DVD+R v. Dual and single layer v. rated burn speeds has my head spinning. Can you help?

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this has been beaten to death already.

Peace,
Tony
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Re: Understanding the "Pluses" and "Minuses&a

Postby dodecahedron on Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:03 am

1. for home use of the regular guy, DVD+R and DVD-R are both fine. the only issues you should be concerned with are compatibility with set-top players and price.

2. there's a compatibility table at www.dvdrhelp.com .
http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers

4. most movies are dual-layer discs. so if you want to back it up, entirely with all soundtracks, subtitles, extras etc. you won't be able to fit all that onto a Single Layer disc. so you either use a Dual Layer (still expensive and iffy in terms of quality) or cut out some stuff and re-encode with compression.

5. for data backup i wouldn't use Dual Layer. stick with Single Layer DVD+R or DVD-R.

6. if you mean back up store-bought DVDs that contain movies, they yeah there are lot's of hoops. plenty of guides on sites like doom9.org and dvdrhelp.com.

7. you might want to back up movies of different regions.
if all you posses and care about are region 1 movies in the US then you don't really need to bother with all that.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
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-- JRRT
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Postby YrbkMgr on Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:38 pm

Wow. Great answers. The links you provided were perfect! Thanks Dodec.

1. for home use of the regular guy, DVD+R and DVD-R are both fine. the only issues you should be concerned with are compatibility with set-top players and price.


So if my SetTop player plays both Plus and Minus, given a decent quality brand, would you say that price would be the next determinate? What would you use if compatability weren't the concern - that is, if SetTop player compatability weren't an issue to you?

4. most movies are dual-layer discs. so if you want to back it up, entirely with all soundtracks, subtitles, extras etc. you won't be able to fit all that onto a Single Layer disc. so you either use a Dual Layer (still expensive and iffy in terms of quality) or cut out some stuff and re-encode with compression.


Then basically, as I read this, it means that I would have to buy Dual Layer media and test to see if a particular dual layer brand worked on my SetTop player. But it should still run in the DVD burner or on a computer DVD player, shouldn't it?

In truth I don't want to get into the video editing business if I can avoid it - I have a precious few DVD movies, and kids - not a great combination <grin>. Since I'm not talking about 50 movies, and want to make it as painless as possible, I think I'll opt for Dual layer, but I guess it's "caveat emptor" in terms of quality and compatability.

So as far as I can tell, I could use a slower speed with the benefit of price, but my punishment would be time.

6. if you mean back up store-bought DVDs that contain movies, they yeah there are lot's of hoops.


Dual/single layer issues aside, are we talking about copy protection encoding? If so, is DVDShrink adequate? Are there issues other than copy protection?

Thanks again for your reply. I've visited here before, and have always found you to be quite knowledgable, so I'm grateful for the replies.


Peace,
Tony
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:13 pm

welcome :)

YrbkMgr wrote:So if my SetTop player plays both Plus and Minus, given a decent quality brand, would you say that price would be the next determinate? What would you use if compatability weren't the concern - that is, if SetTop player compatability weren't an issue to you?

yes, i would say price.
personally i'm willing to spend a little more money for quality media. i'm thinking of lengevity of the discs i burn.
also, you have to consider if you want your DVDs to play on other people's players which might not be as compatible as yours.
if, in the last question in the above quote, you mean would i use + or - i'd say it doesn't really matter.

YrbkMgr wrote:Then basically, as I read this, it means that I would have to buy Dual Layer media and test to see if a particular dual layer brand worked on my SetTop player. But it should still run in the DVD burner or on a computer DVD player, shouldn't it?

In truth I don't want to get into the video editing business if I can avoid it - I have a precious few DVD movies, and kids - not a great combination <grin>. Since I'm not talking about 50 movies, and want to make it as painless as possible, I think I'll opt for Dual layer, but I guess it's "caveat emptor" in terms of quality and compatability.

So as far as I can tell, I could use a slower speed with the benefit of price, but my punishment would be time.

well, since my grand total # of burned DVDs is a thrilling zero i'm not the one to answer your questions.
but take to mind that not all DVD-ROM drives can read DVDR DL discs.
as for buying media and trying it, well you can have the benefit of others if you read the forums... :)

YrbkMgr wrote:Dual/single layer issues aside, are we talking about copy protection encoding? If so, is DVDShrink adequate? Are there issues other than copy protection?

like i said i'm not the one to speak from experience, but yeah the main obstacle is the CSS protection.
DVD Decrypter and DVD Shrink are two freeware tools that make life easy and simple, it should'nt be too hard to figure things out and learn how to do this.
once i've done that myself i'll let you know
:D
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One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie
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Postby YrbkMgr on Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:39 pm

Thanks again Dodec.

as for buying media and trying it, well you can have the benefit of others if you read the forums...


Well, in truth, there's a lot of chaff to wade through to get to the wheat, so to speak. I've lurked here for a long time because as I've said, I burn a lot of CD-Rs; I've followed media recommendations and "test" results for CD-R media here and I hope that I don't sound snotty when I say that my observation is that most people don't know how to test media, or drives for that matter.

Now I'm not sure that my interpretation would be preserved in the DVD arena, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that I'll have to test on my own to be sure of what works, what doesn't, and why (drive issue v. media issue).

I'll probably now go into research mode and investigate the various manufacturers (versus resellers); at least now I have a reasonable understanding that there's no guarantee about cross player/burner compatability.

That said, again, I'm grateful for the direction.

Peace,
Tony
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Postby Spade on Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:26 pm

For the minus media: there is a copyright protection system that works only with the minus media, it's called CPRM, if you have a disc that's recorded on a DVD video recorder, and its on minus recordable media, and the content provider/broadcaster has given it a CPRM tag/fag,
you have restrictions with that disc, with a drive/burner that supports CPRM, which ranges from not visible/playing or not copy- able, or only one copy posible, to avoid this, use only plus media able devices/media.
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Postby Justin42 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:10 pm

Actually, as I understand it, CPRM more is an issue of how the recorder handles things. It's only written onto DVD-RW and DVD-RAM. That last post is kind of misunderstanding how it works. CPRM flags the content from being put onto a disc in the first place. Once it's on a DVD-R you can do pretty much anything, including rip/copy the discs (using something that understands it, like DVDDecryptor, but you'd be using that anyway probably)

CPRM is hardly a reason to avoid the '-' formats. It pretty much is only encoded onto DVD-RW and DVD-RAM (from my understanding) and only then if the source material had CPRM protection (mostly the pay channels and such). In having a set top DVD-R box for over 2 years I have never had CPRM problems. I also don't subscribe to HBO or the pay services in general and I know some people DO have issues.

(source: http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa7.htm )

You'll find MUCH better set top boxes that handle specifically DVD-R formats than +R formats. Although there's a convergence going on. But you won't be able to copy a CPRM protected show onto a DVD+R disc on a box that knows what CPRM is... (as the CPRM is encoded on the hard drive's copy before it even touches a disc-- the box will prevent you from burning if it's set to "copy once" because the video on the hard drive *is* that one copy.)

There is no major significant difference between + and -, really. In older set top boxes, - discs are more compatible. Bitsetting on the "+" side helps a bit but it's a case of why bother-- if you can play -R without worry, why buy +R just to bitset it?

Price is the only big object, plus what your burner likes. If you have a burner that "prefers" DVD-R media (like LG, Pioneer, etc), use that. If it prefers +R (Plextor, Benq), use that. (Not saying those brands can't burn the other format, just some brands tend to do one or the other better)

I tend to use DVD-R for video, especially when I don't know the make/model of the unit that it will be played back on (family videos, etc), and +R for data (cause I like Verbatim's DVD+R and it goes on sale for extremely cheap).
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Postby Han on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:40 am

Simple, fast and effective DVD movie backup solution:

- AnyDVD (defeats virtually any protection)
- CloneDVD (rips and writes what you want)

When you backup to dual layer DVD+R, make sure you've set DVD-ROM booktype on your writer. You can usually do that from Nero InfoTool or DVDInfoPro utility programs.
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