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Verbatim Problems, Pls Help or Advice

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Verbatim Problems, Pls Help or Advice

Postby Albinoni on Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:30 pm

I recently went out and bought a box of 10 verbatim Data Life Plus 48x 700MB, with Super AZO CD-R's. These discs have a blue coloured bottom or surface while the top is silver. Now also I ahve got a box of 10 Mitsubishi's 24x 700MB CD-R's here which have virtually the same coloured bottom to that of the Verbatims, and also has the Super AZO, so I am presuming the Verbatims CD-R's are manufactured by Mitsubishi. Now time to do the burn. Burned a compilation of 10 songs/tracks on a Mitsubishi CD-R and the exact same burn on a Verbatim CD-R. I've burned music heaps of times so I dont have a problem with that. Now time to test out both the CD-R's, my Sony Discman accepted the Mitsubishi and played the CD-R beautifully, time to insert the Verbatim CD-R, and sorry but bad bad luck, she did not like it and did not accept it. So my conclusion here is that technically speaking havent I inserted 2 Mitsubishi Discs or CD-R's, a Mitsubishi CD-R and a re-badged Verbatim which is technically a Mitsubishi CD-R, just re badged as a Verbatim. Honestly I cannot understand whats going on here.
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Postby CDRecorder on Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:41 pm

You are correct; the Verbatims are made by Mitsubishi. What burner did you use, what firmware does it have, and what speeds did you try? The difference could be that the Verbatims were made differently because they are made for a higher speed, or it could be that you wrote the Verbatims at a faster speed (I am assuming you wrote the Verbatims faster because they are rated for faster writing).
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Postby cfitz on Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:33 pm

Verbatim is a subsidiary (or is it just a trade name?) of Mitsubishi Chemicals. So I don't think "rebadged" is quite the right term here - they are actually the same company. But you are correct that Mitsubishi Chemicals "makes" Verbatim discs. However, they are made in many different factories, and some of them are even reputed to be made in CMC factories with Mitsubishi Chemical's processes. This might also account for some of the differences you see. There is no chance that the 24x are AZO dye, is there? I believe the highest speed for the older AZO dye was 16x, but there might be some 24x out there as well. That could be another difference.

Here is a thread that talks about the various and sundry flavors of Verbatim/Mitsubishi Chemicals:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9688

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Postby Albinoni on Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:51 am

I used my Liteon LTR 48246S burner, I'm using firmware version SS08 according to Nero infotoolkit. Also used Nero burning ROM. The Verbatims I've got or bought most definately have got AZO protection, this being on both the 650MB and 700MB Verbatims. The other thing is that the box of both of them has got Data Life Plus written on them, would this really effect music burning. I also bought another box of Verbatims today, but these ones have Music Life Plus writen on the box, so thought I might give these ones a go and see how I go. But I honestly don't know if these would make a difference, to me its all a matter of trial and error.

When burning on the Verbatims I used a slow speed, i.e 4x, as I thought that this was the best speed to burn music on CD-R's, though I've heard rumours when using or burning on these CD-R's they should be done at a high speed, and if so, how can this effect the burn. At the end of the day isnt a burn a burn, just done at different speeds.

Also would you know where I can upgrade to the latest firmware, though I dont want to flash my Liteon 48246S to a 52246s.
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Postby vbl117 on Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:58 am

I have to clear one confusion . In fact due to USA/JAPAN war consequences Mitsubishi was dissolved .

I copy/paste :

" After World War II, the Allied occupation forces were in favor of voluntary dissolution by Japan’s zaibatsu industrial groups, including Mitsubishi. That sentiment became formal in October 1945. Koyata himself succumbed to illness in December 1945 "

So there is now several companies with Mitsubishi in their name . That's why to be accurate i speak most of the time about Mitsubishi Chemicals .

" A revolution was under way, for example, in Japan’s energy and materials industries. The Mitsubishi companies participated actively in that revolution, setting up Mitsubishi Petrochemical (now part of Mitsubishi Chemical), Mitsubishi Atomic Power Industries, Mitsubishi Liquefied Petroleum Gas, and Mitsubishi Petroleum Development, among other new enterprises. "

Mitsubishi Electric explain this on his website ( i quoted from it ) :

http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/about/history.htm

You can also take a look at Mitsubishi Motors history :

http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/company/history.asp

If you want to know which Mitsubishi enterprise acts in one sector , you can go there :

http://www.mitsubishi.or.jp/

Also in this list Mitsubishi Chemicals shows all his major afiliates/subsidiaries . Mitsubishi Chemicals own 100 per cent of Verbatim Corporation

http://www.m-kagaku.co.jp/english/corporate/major.html

And the "about" page on Verbatim website says too it is a Misubishi Chemicals Corporation Subsidiary :

http://www.verbatim.com/about/about.cfm

. I think Verbatim manufacture itself at least some of the media ( it can be that other subsidiaries in Mitsubishi Chemicals produce most of or part of the media ) since it owns production plants ( i assume their own plants produce mainly CD-R , CD-RW, DVD-R , DVD-RW , DVD+R , and DVD+RW media and not other storage products ) .

http://www.pbs.org/bottomline/html/e2_trans4.html

Hum in this last article journalists accuse a Verbatim Plant and other plants to exploit some mexican workers . This is off subject . But we cannot live too far from realities . I will read it though . You are not forced to do like me . If you want further discussion on this you should move it to "Rants and Raves" .
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:59 am

Albinoni wrote:The Verbatims I've got or bought most definately have got AZO protection

AZO is not a protection, it is a type of dye. And Mitsubisihi Chemicals produced two major variants, the original AZO for low speed burning and the newer SuperAZO for high speed burning.

Albinoni wrote:The other thing is that the box of both of them has got Data Life Plus written on them, would this really effect music burning.

No, the name "DataLife Plus" does not mean you can only use the disc for data. There is nothing to stop you from burning music on these discs in a computer's burner.

Albinoni wrote:I also bought another box of Verbatims today, but these ones have Music Life Plus writen on the box, so thought I might give these ones a go and see how I go.

Not likely. Read this for the differences between normal data CD-R's and "Audio" CD-R's:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 0778#30778
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 9639#49639

Albinoni wrote:When burning on the Verbatims I used a slow speed, i.e 4x, as I thought that this was the best speed to burn music on CD-R's, though I've heard rumours when using or burning on these CD-R's they should be done at a high speed, and if so, how can this effect the burn.

Since the SuperAZO dye was designed for higher burning speeds, you might have better luck burning at a higher speed. Slower is not always better with newer dyes tuned for higher speeds. Try 16x, 24x, and 32x burns and see if that makes any difference.

Albinoni wrote:At the end of the day isnt a burn a burn, just done at different speeds.

What can I say? There are many things that affect burns, including speed. Keep reading these forums. :wink:

Albinoni wrote:Also would you know where I can upgrade to the latest firmware, though I dont want to flash my Liteon 48246S to a 52246s.

SS0C from the official website:

http://www.liteonit.com.tw/webfw/LTR-48246S/R48SS0C.zip

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Postby ben-xo on Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:12 am

I can confirm that burning the Super AZO discs slower than 12x causes huge problems. My Acer 12x burner spits out coasters with Super AZO at 8x write... but at 12x write the burn is acceptable.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:41 am

ben-xo wrote:I can confirm that burning the Super AZO discs slower than 12x causes huge problems. My Acer 12x burner spits out coasters with Super AZO at 8x write... but at 12x write the burn is acceptable.

Thanks ben-xo. I noticed your timely contribution to the media compatibility thread, and was going to tell Albinoni to mosey on over and take a look at what you had experienced. But you have already kindly shared your experience directly.

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Postby nox on Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:43 am

Where are the Verbatim and Mitsubishis made?
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:46 am

nox wrote:Where are the Verbatim and Mitsubishis made?

Is this a question to Albinoni specific to his discs, or a general question? If it is a general question, see my post earlier in this thread:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 1132#61132

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Postby nox on Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:00 am

It's a question for Albinoni.
I have a friend that can play SuperAzo 24x discs made in Taiwan in his Technics hi-fi, but he says that it doesn't accept well the SuperAzo 40x made in India...

Do you know what are the CMC factories?
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Postby Albinoni on Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:36 pm

Many kind thanks for your help everybody and for further discussion re this post I will explain the following. Ok I've got 3 boxes of Verbatims, they are as follows:

1. Verbatim Data Life Plus 48x CD-R 700MB with Crystal and Super AZO
2. Verbatim Data life Plus 1x-16x Compatible CD-R 650MB with Metal AZO
3. Verbatim Music Life Plus Audio CD-R 80mins/700MB with Crystal and
Metal AZO.

When trying to burn on number 1 above (with super AZO) should I try this
time to do it at a higher speed, perhaps its a trial and error thing. I might try 16x, 24x or 32x. If it works at 16x, then I will keep it to that burn.

How about the other two, numbers 2 and 3 above with the metal AZO, what speed should I use to burn these CD-R's.

I honestly dont know where numbers 1 and 2 are made, but I do know that number 3 above is made in Taiwan, i would presume that 1 and 2 are also made in Taiwan.

Also I dont want to flash any firmware to my Liteon until I'm 100% sure that I really need to.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:40 pm

Albinoni wrote:How about the other two, numbers 2 and 3 above with the metal AZO, what speed should I use to burn these CD-R's.

You can try those at as low a speed as your burner will go, since they were designed for lower speed burning. However, don't be surprised if you still have some trouble. It isn't just the media that have been tuned for higher speed burning, the drives have also. I'd probably try them at 8x first as a compromise position. In the end, whatever works for you is best for you. As you and others have noted, often some trial and error is required.

By the way, I'm suggesting lower speeds in general here because I got the impression you wanted to burn at lower speeds, having heard the old "CD-R's burned with audio work better at lower burn speeds" argument. If you aren't an audiophile who gets freaked out by the idea of burning audio at higher speeds, and you get good results at higher speeds, then by all means do so.

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Postby Albinoni on Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:50 pm

Also could this to be with the device that I'm playing it back in, i.e my Sony Discman, though the discman has played back every other CD-R's from Kodak Gold & Silver, Black surface CD-R's and also the Mitsubishi CD-R's which also have a blue bottom surface similar to those of the Verbatim, so really is the dye/colour a problem and my discman does not like it, but to me if it didn't like the blue then it would not of played back the Mitsubishi CD-R's.

Also is the metal AZO made for slow speed burning. I did burn the metal AZO previously at a slow speed being 4x, but still got the error and skipping. Perhaps I should jump to 8x or 12x and see how things go.

Yes Cfitz I did get the old impression that the good old slow burn does provide a better sounding CD-R to that of a higher speed one, but it looks like my belief is wrong and according to you and others on this forum, this is all dependable on the type of media and burner that you use, though when I use Kodak Ultima 80 Gold & Silver CD-R's I get a good burn either from 4x or 8x.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:09 pm

Albinoni wrote:Also could this to be with the device that I'm playing it back in

Yes, the three main pieces of the puzzle are the burner, the media, and the reader. All contribute to the end result.

Albinoni wrote:Also is the metal AZO made for slow speed burning. I did burn the metal AZO previously at a slow speed being 4x, but still got the error and skipping.

That's why I mentioned that it isn't just the dyes that may have been tuned for higher speed burning but also the burners, and why I suggested 8x as a possible compromise speed.

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Postby MediumRare on Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:58 pm

nox wrote:It's a question for Albinoni.
I have a friend that can play SuperAzo 24x discs made in Taiwan in his Technics hi-fi, but he says that it doesn't accept well the SuperAzo 40x made in India...

This is a moot point, because Albioni had Metal Azo as well as SuperAzo, but Verbatim SuperAzo media has several ATIPs:
Code: Select all
24x,32x:  97m34s22f
40x,48x:  97m34s23f

So the dye on the 24x and 40x media probably differs. This may explain the varying reading properties your friend is seeing.

Incidentally, I haven't seen any significant difference in the quality of the 40x and 48x media in connection with where it was made (India, Mexico or "EU").

To see which media Verbatim has offered (in Germany), you can check at InstantInfo:
http://www.instantinfo.de/index_cdrohlinge_e.php, choose extended search, Brand: Verbatim, Results.

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Postby Albinoni on Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:01 pm

Cfitz I did try as you said, to increase the speed of thr burn, but still no luck, also tried a 8x burn on the metal AZO ones I bought and still no luck, this has kept me scratching my head, as the Mitsubishi's with Super AZO work fine, so I am puzzled. I went out and purposely bought Verbatims because I heard of lot of people on this forum and others rave on about them, also some one mentioned that they were better than Kodak (Grrrrrrr :evil: ). I've always used kodak as my default CD-R for music/audion and never ever had a coaster or error.

Also I did notice the latest firmware upgrade on the Liteon Site for my 48246S. and the one you linked to me. It says on there "Match More Media", so what does this actually mean. Does it mean that it allows me to use more different brand media. Also if I decide to upgrade the firmware with this Match More Media firmware download, then would it be backwards compatible, meaning the current CD-R's and CD-RW's like Imation and Kodak can still be used, also once upgraded you cannot go back to the original firmware, well this is according to the Liteon website. But really should I upgrade the firmware or just leave it.

Another question is that how can a firmware upgrade allow your burner to match more media, what does it change the laser light to a different colour, or what ????

I did download the latest firmware from the Liteon website and saved it onto a floppy disk as a zip file, but when I went to unzip it, I got an error at a later stage saying that the disk was full, but according to the website the size is smaller than 1.44MB, so would it be better for me to save onto floppy then craete a folder into the C drive and transfer from floppy to the folder on the C drive on the PC and execute the command from there.

As I said upgrading the firmware is the last resort for me and I dont want to rush into it as yet.
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Postby MediumRare on Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:11 pm

I think we may be on the wrong trail here.
Please check if the disks you burn are OK. You can use Nero CDSpeed, Option "Extras", "ScanDisc", "SurfaceScan". If there are no errors shown, the problem probably lies with your discman. Some older drives are really picky with CDRs. In that case, you may have to choose your media for compatibility with the discman.

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Postby Albinoni on Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:41 pm

MediumRare I would suggest to my self that it's probably best that I try these Verbatim Discs in other CD players as well and see how they perform in them as well, if they do work, then perhaps its my Discman. Mind you my discman is 12 yrs old, but she is still a top quality and very well built Sony model, also when I bought it, it was a reference model. The Kodak Ultima 80's Gold & Silver work very well in it, so do the black cd-r's and also the Imations.

[/img][/list]
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Postby MediumRare on Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:15 pm

Albinoni wrote:Mind you my discman is 12 yrs old, but she is still a top quality and very well built Sony model, also when I bought it, it was a reference model. The Kodak Ultima 80's Gold & Silver work very well in it, so do the black cd-r's and also the Imations.

Yeah- I have a 10 year old D-99 too. It started skipping occasionaly a while ago, but it does that with pressed CDs too.
I actually started using the Verbatims for 3 reasons:
1. Some test I read said that the blue dye had the best compatibility with CD-players
2. The AZO dye was supposedly among the most durable pigments
3. We used different media at work (where I did my first burns) so nobody would suspect I was using company material for private purposes.
I haven't had much of a reason to change, other than that we use Verbatim at work now too. But now I have my own burner. :D

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Postby Albinoni on Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:54 am

Medium Rare, yes my Sony Discman is model D-350, came out in the late 80's. Also BTW have you used the Verbatims in your discman and they've played well or played at all. I did do a test on a few of my verbatims, the ones that I burned on, as you suggested using Nero, and sadly but truly I got some errors, some showed up quite bad.
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Postby cfitz on Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:49 pm

Albinoni wrote:also once upgraded you cannot go back to the original firmware

First, back up the original firmware using mtkflash:

http://www.firmware-flash.com/~dhc014/mtkflash.htm

Then you can always restore your original firmware with mtkflash or, even easier, MtkWinFlash:

http://digi.rpc1.org/mwf.htm

Albinoni wrote:I did download the latest firmware from the Liteon website and saved it onto a floppy disk as a zip file, but when I went to unzip it, I got an error at a later stage saying that the disk was full, but according to the website the size is smaller than 1.44MB, so would it be better for me to save onto floppy then craete a folder into the C drive and transfer from floppy to the folder on the C drive on the PC and execute the command from there.

First, the flashing program works from windows, so there is no need to copy it onto a floppy and boot into DOS. And it will fit on a floppy. But you can't fit both the zip file and the extracted exe on the same floppy. So you have to put one or the other on your hard drive.

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Postby Albinoni on Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:53 am

Hi Cfitz, I finally solved my nightmares to these Verbatims CD-R's and it is the laser/lens on my Sony Discman, mind you its 12 yrs old, but still in A1 condition. I tried all the Verbatim Discs I burned music onto, on my friends Pioneer car stereo (wow what a system he's got) and they all worked wonderfully, no jumping, skipping errors what so ever. All Verbatim CD-R's were tried and they worked. So at the end of the day it's the lens/laser on my Discman and not the Verbatims, though I'm still scratching my head on why the Mitsubishi (with blue bottom) worked in my Discman, hmmmmmmmmm weird.

Also I'm not going to bother to flash the firmware to my Liteon, unless it is absolutely necessary.

Anyhow no bid deal, I will stick to the good old faithful Kodak Ultima 80 Gold & Silver CD-R's. I've used these very so often and am very happy with them.

Once again many kind thanks for your help.

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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:36 am

Well, I'm glad you got things working/explained to your satisfaction. As for why the Mitsubishi Chemicals branded disc worked while the Verbatim branded did not, some mysteries we may never solve. :wink: But I suspect it has something to do with the various potential differences we mentioned earlier in the thread.

Anyway, you're welcome, although in the end I wasn't much help. :wink:

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