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Is 16x DVD-media systematically better than DVD+ media?

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:20 pm

alexnoe wrote:
I have not seen any other results that would indicate that 16x DVD-R write results would be better than for 16x DVD+R, rather the other way around...
Maybe because the C'T didn't test Optodisc, Ritek etc 16x DVD-R :D

Could actually *anyone* reproduce the bad result with MMC-004?


I've had bad results with MCC 004, but not in a long time.
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Postby Scour on Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:03 pm

alexnoe wrote:Maybe because the C'T didn't test Optodisc, Ritek etc 16x DVD-R :D



I prefer media from MCC, Sony and TY :)

Don´t think that Ritek and Optodisc could be seen as refrence
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Postby alexnoe on Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:04 pm

But they are the reasons why some dvd+ trolls still have arguments on their side
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Postby Scour on Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:30 pm

alexnoe wrote:But they are the reasons why some dvd+ trolls still have arguments on their side


I know :-?

I asked at Cdfreaks and someone postet a link to a topic named "Why DVD+R is superior to DVD-R".

I read a little of that and I think he only write what Philips wrote to push the +R-format, all theoretical and absoluty nobody can prove why + is better than -
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Postby Gary Kokkin on Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:11 pm

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Postby Scour on Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:09 am




I read endless discussions but never found something non-theoretical advantage for DVD+R
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:33 am

Scour wrote:



I read endless discussions but never found something non-theoretical advantage for DVD+R


Agreed. DVD+R is no better then DVD-R. DVD+RW on the other hand, is a different story! :wink:
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Postby Gary Kokkin on Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:31 pm

Can you prove the opposite ?
Why DVD-ROM booktype (which many drives only in DVD+R do), aren't better in compatibilty than DVD-R ?
-I think this capability of DVD+R, is the one and only best reason buying this media format -Next,will be writing quality, dye of media,brand etc
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:07 pm

Gary Kokkin wrote:Can you prove the opposite ?
Why DVD-ROM booktype (which many drives only in DVD+R do), aren't better in compatibilty than DVD-R ?
-I think this capability of DVD+R, is the one and only best reason buying this media format -Next,will be writing quality, dye of media,brand etc


I've never seen a drive that wouldn't play a DVD-R, but would play a DVD+R (booktype set or not). For that matter... I haven't seen a DVD Player that wouldn't play a DVD+R even WITHOUT bitsetting in a pretty long time either :wink:
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Postby Scour on Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:06 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
Gary Kokkin wrote:Can you prove the opposite ?
Why DVD-ROM booktype (which many drives only in DVD+R do), aren't better in compatibilty than DVD-R ?
-I think this capability of DVD+R, is the one and only best reason buying this media format -Next,will be writing quality, dye of media,brand etc


I've never seen a drive that wouldn't play a DVD-R, but would play a DVD+R (booktype set or not). For that matter... I haven't seen a DVD Player that wouldn't play a DVD+R even WITHOUT bitsetting in a pretty long time either :wink:


Why should we prove the opposite? We don´t say that DVD-R is superior to DVD+R, we only say that one format is not better than the other :)

I have an Cyberhome 402 DVD-Player. It reads DVD-R without any problems, even trash-media like Infosmart. With DVD+R the player only worked after FW-Update. And maybe you know that only 10% or less of people who owning a DVD-Playet know that FW-Updates are existing.
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Postby Gary Kokkin on Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

Starting reading times on booktyped as DVD-Rom DVD+R discs ,are faster than DVD-R in standalone players
DVD rom is fist development booktype than DVD-R- Many DVD-Rom players <2002 didn't have ability play DVD+R (and have problems also is DVD-R discs burn >4x speed or not support DVD-R at all !) ,setting booktype,except fast burn,helps a lot these older players play recordable media.

-Also newer players from Panasonic,Pioneer which not official support DVD+R reading , in simple video DVD+R discs are very selectable and unstable in many media-With DVD-ROM booktype no problem at all even in cheap media-So this ability of DVD+R media is a big plus in format war.
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Postby Scour on Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:41 pm

Hello!

I have a LG GSA 4082. No booktype-setting.

That means: Nice thing, this booktype-setting. But why I should buy a new DVD-writer with Booktype-setting when all of my drives have no problems with DVD-R?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:01 pm

Gary Kokkin wrote:Starting reading times on booktyped as DVD-Rom DVD+R discs ,are faster than DVD-R in standalone players
DVD rom is fist development booktype than DVD-R- Many DVD-Rom players <2002 didn't have ability play DVD+R (and have problems also is DVD-R discs burn >4x speed or not support DVD-R at all !) ,setting booktype,except fast burn,helps a lot these older players play recordable media.

-Also newer players from Panasonic,Pioneer which not official support DVD+R reading , in simple video DVD+R discs are very selectable and unstable in many media-With DVD-ROM booktype no problem at all even in cheap media-So this ability of DVD+R media is a big plus in format war.


Can you prove any of that? I haven't seen proof for almost any of that (especially the first paragraph).
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Postby Gary Kokkin on Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:16 pm

@ dolphinius_rex
You must try it by yoursel at first change.
-Understand is difficult to prove you something if not have the equipment under your attention to see .

@ Scour
Never said buy new recorder -If your DVD-R recordings meet your needs and play in usually value for money (compatible) stand alone DVD-players ,there isn't a reason

-Downgrade playing for some reason on older machines-( still exist thousands ,even great price drop worth buying newer )- should be a problem,due most media compatiblity-(firmware upgrades fix problem,rare exist in cheap models)-
-So next step as solution is to try burn in DVD-ROM booktype
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:55 pm

Gary Kokkin wrote:@ dolphinius_rex
You must try it by yoursel at first change.
-Understand is difficult to prove you something if not have the equipment under your attention to see .


Believe me, I know :roll:
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Postby dodecahedron on Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:46 pm

Gary Kokkin wrote:setting booktype,except fast burn,helps a lot these older players play recordable media.

changing the booktype to DVD-ROM makes a faster burn ???
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Postby Gary Kokkin on Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:08 am

Booktype DVD-ROM loads faster,plays faster in stand alone (home) DVD-players even old ones, as my tests.

With "Fast burn" (as i wrote before) meant, the generall DVD+R ability (till now) burn faster many low rated media -Same for DVD-R media were not suggest or able do that in many burners -Now the 16x rated DVD-R media appeared,and fast burn is also safe with good quality (on selected media)
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Postby Scour on Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:16 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:
Gary Kokkin wrote:Starting reading times on booktyped as DVD-Rom DVD+R discs ,are faster than DVD-R in standalone players
DVD rom is fist development booktype than DVD-R- Many DVD-Rom players <2002 didn't have ability play DVD+R (and have problems also is DVD-R discs burn >4x speed or not support DVD-R at all !) ,setting booktype,except fast burn,helps a lot these older players play recordable media.

-Also newer players from Panasonic,Pioneer which not official support DVD+R reading , in simple video DVD+R discs are very selectable and unstable in many media-With DVD-ROM booktype no problem at all even in cheap media-So this ability of DVD+R media is a big plus in format war.


Can you prove any of that? I haven't seen proof for almost any of that (especially the first paragraph).


Yes, Dolphl I agree :)


My Cyberhome 402 recognize DVD-R faster than DVD+R and make not so loud noises when I insert the media.


BTW, the DVD+RW-Alliance had other problems in the moment:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12107
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Postby RJW on Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:07 am

Ehh Garry Kokkin is right when he said that disc's with DVD-rom booktype allow faster reading on some drives.
Some drives are factory limited for recordables and rewritables.
This was allready seen in the cd-r age !

I can say that in the old days (up to 4x) +R was more safe to buy when it was about quality because quite some crap manufacturers didn't make +R.
However with todays disc I don't see much difference.

There is one thing Philips said from day one that +R would reach speeds like 16x. Pioneer however has said for a long time that for -R that 8x would be the limit. Now it might be that different production methodes has changed Pioneer view.However if I remember well then it was more as production alone.
So this makes me wonder did DVD forum partners do more R&D and overcome all the problems and also improved it much ?
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Postby RJW on Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:31 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:
alexnoe wrote:
I have not seen any other results that would indicate that 16x DVD-R write results would be better than for 16x DVD+R, rather the other way around...
Maybe because the C'T didn't test Optodisc, Ritek etc 16x DVD-R :D

Could actually *anyone* reproduce the bad result with MMC-004?


I've had bad results with MCC 004, but not in a long time.


There were some reports about inconsistant performance with MCC-004 in the begining. The numbers of problematic disc's were quite small but there were there.

Also Ritek disc's aren't that well suported. That counts for -R and both +R disc's. RitekP16 seems to be not supported at all on quite some drives (4x write speed !)
And for the folks who think RitekP16 ? That's the new ritek 16x +R disc !.
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Postby Scour on Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:24 am

RJW wrote:Also Ritek disc's aren't that well suported. That counts for -R and both +R disc's. RitekP16 seems to be not supported at all on quite some drives (4x write speed !)
And for the folks who think RitekP16 ? That's the new ritek 16x +R disc !.


Are the Ritek 16x only not well supported or those media is pure crap? The 16x +R is avaible for some months, but the speed and wuality with many writers are not good.


RJW wrote:I can say that in the old days (up to 4x) +R was more safe to buy when it was about quality because quite some crap manufacturers didn't make +R.
However with todays disc I don't see much difference.


That´s the point. In the early +R-days only some better manufacturers produce them, no manuf. like Princo, Leaddata etc. produce +R.

Today, I sont see much difference
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Postby aviationwiz on Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:10 pm

hoxlund wrote:like the saying goes

don't worry about booktype setting just use dvd- media

since day one of dvd burning ive used dvd- media, never had a problem reading them back in anything


I think your stuck in the olden days back when DVD+R was incompatible where DVD-R was compatible with existing equipment. Nowadays, and for the past several years, both formats have had around the same compatibility with DVD players.
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Postby RJW on Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:17 pm

Scour wrote:
RJW wrote:Also Ritek disc's aren't that well suported. That counts for -R and both +R disc's. RitekP16 seems to be not supported at all on quite some drives (4x write speed !)
And for the folks who think RitekP16 ? That's the new ritek 16x +R disc !.


Are the Ritek 16x only not well supported or those media is pure crap? The 16x +R is avaible for some months, but the speed and wuality with many writers are not good.
[quote]
The new P16 are not so long on the market I know one shop who sells these and infact they only started selling them a few weeks ago.
So not some months !!

From the results so far it seems that support is really a mayor issue.
Because a lot of drives won't allow faster as 4x.
Now I know Ritek quality is known for it's huge fluctuations however I don't think that a brand new 16x disc would be limited because of the usual ritek variation because the old 16x RITEK R04 burns 8x/12x/16x so the 4x speed suggests no support so far.
Benq/Philips offcourse can burn it at 16x but what do you expect it's +R and these drives can use the info from the ADIP.
Als PX-716 burns at 12x.
So there are some exceptions.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:22 pm

aviationwiz wrote:
hoxlund wrote:like the saying goes

don't worry about booktype setting just use dvd- media

since day one of dvd burning ive used dvd- media, never had a problem reading them back in anything


I think your stuck in the olden days back when DVD+R was incompatible where DVD-R was compatible with existing equipment. Nowadays, and for the past several years, both formats have had around the same compatibility with DVD players.


I agree.... but in Canada most people have little or no supply of DVD+R media, because it is almost never requested. Even in the US, DVD-R outsells DVD+R more then 100:1. Even in the case of Taiyo Yuden, or Ritek, or Optodisc, all of which have very well supported 8x DVD+R! (if you consider RICOHJPNR02 and not RITEKR03 :P).
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Postby jsl on Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:16 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:Even in the US, DVD-R outsells DVD+R more then 100:1.

Not a chance. DVD-R might sell better in America but no way that the difference is that large. Not sure how true the following numbers are but it's a recent quote from MMIS:
"DVD-R/RW discs are more popular in the U.S. than DVD+R/RW media, but just the opposite is true in Western Europe. Worldwide, the latest estimates from Taiwan show DVD+R with 51 percent of the worldwide market for write-once DVD-type discs; for the three rewritable formats, DVD+RW has a 40 percent share, DVD-RW a 34 percent share, and DVD-RAM 26 percent."
Other numbers I've seen also show pretty small difference between worldwide sold DVD-R and DVD+R discs and I doubt we burn that much more in Europe than in US...

RJW wrote:The new P16 are not so long on the market I know one shop who sells these and infact they only started selling them a few weeks ago.

So what does the P stand for? Prototype maybe? ;) I saw that Philips lists R05 as "approved" now so that's a third Ritek 16x DVD+R TID...
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