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Best CDR Writer for Audio ?

Burn baby burn!

Postby robertb on Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:44 pm

Hey
If poor Jricci has read this lot he has probably given up life as a DJ and taken up playing the piano.
I think he just wanted a tip for producing an audio CD which will play on most CD players ?
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Postby cfitz on Sat Jun 28, 2003 10:58 am

He did get a bunch of tips from a bunch of people that will help. The volume of advice and the ambiguity of much of it may seem overwhelming, but unfortunately there is no simple one-sentence tip that will solve all audio playback problems. That's life. 8)

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Postby Inertia on Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:29 pm

cfitz,

Nicely put. I was tempted to express the same general throughts, but resisted when my tact lacked. :P
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Postby robertb on Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:13 pm

I agree entirely
Jricci must be totally overwhelmed :wink:
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Postby rdgrimes on Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:41 pm

Here's a couple audio discs that were burned in an audio recorder at 1x. The media appears to be the old 16x TY type according to the ATIP. The C2 on the second one is due to multisession writing. I'd have to say that these discs would be as "compatable" as they come. Maybe the audio recorder is the way to go?

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Postby Inertia on Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:58 pm

rdgrimes wrote:The C2 on the second one is due to multisession writing.


A "multisession" audio disc would only play the first session, and I'm sure that you overlooked that multisession is not used for audio.

Unless there is some other explanation for the C2 errors, the errors would not be acceptable. Perhaps you meant it was a track-at-once recording instead of multisession, and the link blocks are showing up as C2 errors?

Not having used an audio recorder, I'm not sure whether track-at-once recording is possible. It would seem that they are intended for disc to disc copying and not track copying.
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Postby rdgrimes on Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:10 pm

As always, you are correct Inertia, I meant TAO. The audio recorders use various methods of "pausing" between tracks that amount to TAO and seem to confuse some burners trying to scan them. This particular recorder allows you to pause, creating TAO, or you can manually insert a break while the recording continues, (SAO). They also allow you to leave the disc open or close it.
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Postby Inertia on Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:49 pm

While it is undeniable that the C1 error levels produced on the audio recorder are excellent, there are a number of qualifications and caveats regarding this recording method:

I have gotten C1 error levels in the .04 range when recording at 52X with a Liteon LTR 52246S and TY media. Therefore, it isn't the 1X recording speed of the audio recorder per se that is responsible for the low error levels, but a good match of the media and recorder requirements. Burning at 1X does not guarantee a good burn, but it does guarantee a slow burn. Most currently manufactured media is optimized for the higher speed capabilities of newer burners. Some of the best and newest computer media may produce unacceptable results at 1X recording speed. Personally, I would rather wait 2½ minutes instead of 80 minutes to burn a high quality disc.

All else being equal, standalone audio recorders are more expensive than computer CD-RW recorders, and much less flexible. The media for audio recorders is considerably more expensive due to addon recording royalty fees. The media is of no higher quality than standard computer data media, and maybe less as a rule since this is a limited market with fewer choices. In addition to being more costly than computer media, the audio media can't be copied again digitally on the audio recorder due to a copy prevention bit setting. Preventing copies of a copy is the main idea behind the audio recorder, which severely limits its flexibility while it facilitates the collection of royalties for the music industry.

I feel that a standalone audio recorder would be a poor choice for anyone (unless they don't own or intend to buy a computer), and especially so for a DJ. Recordings with low errors are great as long as there isn't a lot of baggage associated with it.
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Postby robertb on Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:17 pm

As a newcomer to the art of good cd burning I have been following this section with interest.
What is starting to really bug me is the knowledge that I can go to any two bit store and buy a dirt cheap audio Cd that will play on any CD player. I even sometimes get a free audio cd with the daily newspapers. And as far as I know these audio cd's will play on any audio cd player.
The salesman behind the counter in the music shop will not say to me "Well sir I'm not sure if this disk will play sir. You see sir it's all to do with the dye colour sir and well of course sir this is not Taiyo Yuden media sir is it sir ?And I don't think Vari-Rec was employed sir.... Know what I mean sir ?..... nod wink nod wink.
Gawd surely this bunch of one eyed manufacturers like Plextor and Lite-On in all their pomp and ceremony can come up with some media , a burner and a bit of software that one can burn a plain ordinary old audio cd like the commercial variety produced that will play on any old cd player??
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jul 01, 2003 1:04 am

Pressed discs and CD-R discs store the binary information in fundamentally different ways, so unfortunately what you propose just isn't such a trivial enterprise.

Pressed discs represent the data via pits and lands at physically different depths (separated by 1/4 wavelength) while CD-R discs represent data by organic dyes whose optical characteristics permanently change when heated by a laser pulse. Thus, there is an unavoidable compromise in readability required to make a CD-R writable.

It is actually quite amazing that manufacturers can supply $0.10 media and $20 burners that work as well as they do. It is quite a technological feat. The manufacturers aren't deliberately trying to frustrate us. 8)

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Postby Inertia on Tue Jul 01, 2003 1:41 am

Thanks again, cfitz, for this elucidating response while I was trying to cobble together a civil reply. 8)

robertb, be aware that oversimplifying the most complex of technical subjects before understanding the concepts is an errant path and is very ill suited for condescension. It may also interest you to know that a well recorded CD-R on home equipment typically produces far fewer errors that a commercially produced pressed CD. :wink:
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Postby robertb on Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:10 pm

Well yes I half expected that it would all get back to just how few c2 errors can be produced while burning the incredible cd-r at xx speed.
And yes a real commercially produced audio cd may be pressed or for all I know spun like an Italian Pizza and may be full of errors but hey they play on every audio cd player.
It's a sad old fact that if somebody put the word out to all the experts far and wide to produce with their cd-writers just ONE audio CD-R that would be capable of playing on any normal working cd player that it just could not be done ??
Surely it can't be true ?
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Postby Inertia on Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:38 pm

robertb wrote:And yes a real commercially produced audio cd may be pressed or for all I know spun like an Italian Pizza and may be full of errors but hey they play on every audio cd player.


Yes, the less you know and the less you are willing to learn, the simpler everything seems. 8)

robertb wrote:It's a sad old fact that if somebody put the word out to all the experts far and wide to produce with their cd-writers just ONE audio CD-R that would be capable of playing on any normal working cd player that it just could not be done ??


Since you choose to substitute complaints, oversimplification, insults, and blind faith for technical research and understanding, we will leave this mission to "put the word" out to you. :D

If you are interested in starting to learn about CD-R recording, here are a couple of well written basic articles:

Compact Disc Errors

How CD-R Discs are Manufactured
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Postby Halc on Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:57 am

robertb wrote:It's a sad old fact that if somebody put the word out to all the experts far and wide to produce with their cd-writers just ONE audio CD-R that would be capable of playing on any normal working cd player that it just could not be done ??
Surely it can't be true ?


I'm afraid it is true. You take an old enough CD player that has not got a moden laser/photosensor combination to deal with the physical differences between CD and CDR bit-encoding and it is impossible to play a CD-R on that player.

Regardless of the level of C1 or C2 errors (and other performance characteristics of the burned disc itself).

But CD players like that are a rarity now and have been for several years (some high end cd players still produce an occasional problem with some discs). More recently dvd players have had problems with both cd-r and cd-rw discs, mainly due to laser wavelength and reflectivity differences (between cd-r and dvd discs). Even this issue was mostly solved in late 90s.

However the above points are IMHO more academic than important in practise.

Today (in EU) where most major label "cd releases "(pressed original audio discs, resembling audio CDs) are already or will be copy protected, I'd venture a guess that MORE players will have problems with original "CDs" than properly written CD-R discs.

To the original poster this may not be very helpful. In practise the easiest way to guarantee compatibility might (IMHO) be to carry with you your own CD-drives. With heavier DJ gear this may not be easy, but can still be easier than finding 100% cd-r compatibility with in-house pre-installed players that have gotten a lot of abuse and probably very little in terms of service or calibration.

Unfortunately CD DJs can't carry with them their own installable laser pick up optics, like vinyl DJs can with their own cartdridges/needles :)

regards,
Halcyon

References:

http://www.osta.org/technology/cdqa6.htm
http://www.osta.org/specs/pdf/cddvd.pdf
http://www.mcgoodwin.net/digitalaudio/digitalaudio.html
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Postby robertb on Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:33 pm

To Halc
Thank you for the interesting and detailed reply adressing both my question and Jricci's original thread.
Oh well thats something to look forward to , Copy protected disks that won't work on my Cd player even if I've paid for them .
Mind you the speed that things are moving at I suppose it is now the norm. Vinyl has sort of fizzled out and audio tapes are sagging so how long for cd's?
Will the tunes be on little ram chips?
A notice appeared in our local paper this week from the charity shop.
" Please do not donate any more Max Bygraves or other Vinyl LP's as our shelves are currently full of unsold stock" Damn it and I have a couple lying around somewhere.
best wishes
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Postby robertb on Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:35 pm

To Inertia

Well thank you for the links

My own interest is not in the factory construction of the CD or even in disassembling my cd drive piece by piece to see how it works or in studying the criteria laid down in the "Yellow Book"
Rather it is to be able to produce a working audio Cd with the least amount of effort.
Undoubtedly after years of studying this subject it must be pretty galling for you to be asked to supply this information free of charge and condensed into 6 easy steps for the beginner. Especially if as I now gather this is not possible.
On the humorous side I did read both links and one of them I would describe as the "Mother of all links"
Quote
(Under Electroforming )

"This nickel copy of the glass master is called the called the metal "father," and can be used as a stamper to replicate CD-R media. However, if the replication run is large, the metal father goes back to the electroplating process to create metal "mothers." These metal mothers are used to make metal "sons," which are identical to the fathers. These are used as stampers to replicate the core of the CD-R disc's polycarbonate. "
Unquote
best wishes
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