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Best CDR Writer for Audio ?

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Best CDR Writer for Audio ?

Postby jricci on Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:24 am

Hi!

I'm a DJ and obviously use a lot of Audio CD's when I play out. Problem is that many CD players out there are old and/or in bad condition and many of them have problems playing back CDR's. So my situation is this: I DON'T CARE A PIECE ABOUT SPEED! I can accept 1x speeds if that's what it takes. I want the BEST QUALITY AUDIO BURNS that I can ever get. I've looked into Yamaha and Plextors quality features and they sound good, question is - does it work? Or are there cheaper or better choices?

Peace!

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:25 am

the Yamaha CRW F1 is the king of audio....however it is also no longer manufactured :(
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Postby aviationwiz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:52 pm

VariRec on the Plextor Premium is very good.

I do think that Advanced Audio Master on the CRW-F1 is much nicer though.
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:51 pm

aviationwiz wrote:VariRec on the Plextor Premium is very good.

Check here for another opinion on that, jricci.

I do find, however, that for some picky audio players, my old Yamaha 3200EZ is better at burning playable CD-R's than my LiteOn. So, if you can find a Yamaha (F1 is the newer model), that might be your choice.

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Postby Inertia on Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:17 pm

Check alchip80's Actual Experience for results with VariRec with real life problems instead of theoretical assessments or utility under perfect conditions.

I disagree that the VariRec adjustment is purely a marketing gimmick. In my opinion it was never intended or suggested to be used except in extreme or unusual circumstances. In fact, it would be a lifesaver for someone who couldn't use their car player except with discs created when tweaking the laser power with VariRec.

Some low quality players like car players may not work with optimized laser power with lowest jitter. If they work because of tweaking with VariRec, this is the proof of the pudding and is reason enough for including this adjustment. In fact, it isn't for everybody, but would be irreplaceable when it is the only way to make a playable disc. :wink:
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:09 pm

well, it is certainly nice to know that someone has actually made practical use of this quaint and unusual feature; that it does has some real-life value.
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:30 pm

That may be one instance where it worked, but consider the implications. He had to go to extreme settings to make it work, the same settings that Plextor cautions may render the disc unplayable. So he now has a disc that has been tuned to play in one troublesome player but may not play in many others. Is this of general utility? No.

Yes, I agree that in the specific situation where one has a picky player that can be made to work by tuning VariRec, VariRec is, if not lifesaving, at least helpful. But how common is that, and wouldn't a solution that doesn't involve customizing CD-R's be better if it is available? Tuning CD-R's to one particular player, if it works at all, may be acceptable for someone who can dedicate a set of CD-R's to one player, but what if one wants to play the discs in many different players, as jricci intends? Should such a person make and carry around nine copies of every CD-R, burned at -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3 and +4 VariRec settings, on the off chance that one of them will work in a troublesome player he happens to come across? That doesn't seem like a good solution.

Of course, maybe the best solution would be for jricci to take his own CD players with him to all his gigs so he can be assured of compatibility.

I'm not arguing that VariRec is completely without value. I just don't think it has general applicability and shouldn't be blindly touted as the premier audio recording technology. I think you might be saying essentially the same thing from a different perspective.

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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:42 pm

yes i am.
so far VariRec did indeed seem mainly like a marketing gimmick (you explaned it quite well in the post you linked to) and its general applicability is rather limited. but like Inertia said, it could come in handy (even if in remote situations).

and one more point - it's not at all rare for people to make Audio CDs especially for the car Audio system and for no other usage.
or alternatively - to make backups of purchased pressed CDs to play on a home HiFi system with a troublesome player, with no special intent to take them elsewhere.
so the ability to "fine tune" burned Audio CDs to one particular player may not be all that useless.
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Postby Inertia on Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:56 pm

I personally have never heard or read that anyone thought that VariRec had general applicability, so this seems a straw man argument.

Also I am unaware of it being blindly touted as the "premier" audio recording technology. It's a tweak, pure and simple. Well made hardware devices of all types beyond the CD-RW world may have optional tweaks installed that have limited utility under special circumstances. This is usually considered to be a feature of a premium product. These types of features, even if not used, are usually considered favorably by users as an option increasing flexibility. They are not usually criticized because they are not of general utility when they were designed and described as being for special purposes. :wink:
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:00 pm

dodecahedron wrote:it's not at all rare for people to make Audio CDs especially for the car Audio system and for no other usage.

Yes, I do the same. In fact, that is the only reason I burn audio CDs. But I would like to be able to use these same CDs when going on a trip with my sister in her car, for example, or when I purchase a new car, or when I go to a picnic and someone has a boombox and I would like to play some music from my car collection.

More to the point of this thread though, and the reason I posted the link in this thread in the first place (I wasn't simply repeating myself for the sake of increasing my post count or calling attention to my previous post :wink: ), is that VariRec is not, in my opinion, a good solution to jricci's specific problem. VariRec is not some magic technology that one simply turns on to make superior audio CD-Rs that play in all manner of players. It is a technology, as has been amply explained, that may allow one to tune a particular media to a troublesome player to make the combination work better. And even then you are likely degrading the jitter, altough I concede that higher jitter + plays is much superior to lower jitter - plays. 8)

Oh, and by the way, my comment about saying the same thing from different perspectives was actually directed towards Inertia, although it may apply to you as well. I got something to eat while composing my reply, so I didn't see that you snuck in a reply before me. ;)

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Postby rdgrimes on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:03 pm

The selection of the proper media for those finicky players is more critical to compatability, IMHO, than how it's burned. Apart from those few finicky players that demand special recording, any burner can create perfectly good audio discs. For the audiophile who has to have everything, perhaps Yami or Plex will provide some peace of mind. But let's be real....99% of the time it doesn't matter what burner is used. Use good media, burn at an optimal speed for the drive, and just enjoy the tunes.
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:14 pm

Hah! Another reply snuck in while I was composing. :)

I guess I am not making myself clear.

Inertia wrote:I personally have never heard or read that anyone thought that VariRec had general applicability, so this seems a straw man argument.

I didn't want to point fingers, but aviationwiz has listed VariRec as the general answer for audio recording in a number of recent threads. He may understand that it is just a tweak, but he isn't explaining it as such. He just says things like "For audio, I would turn on VariRec" and "VariRec on the Plextor Premium is very good." Statements like these don't present enough detail for the reader to understand all the implications and limitations. Thus, I felt the need to elaborate. So, I don't feel that I am arguing against a straw man.

Inertia wrote:These types of features, even if not used, are usually considered favorably by users as an option increasing flexibility.

I have no problem with this, as long as the full story is told. Again, my main reason for posting in this thread was that I don't feel VariRec is the right solution for jricci's problem, and I didn't feel that the full story was told initially.

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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:22 pm

Inertia wrote:I personally have never heard or read that anyone thought that VariRec had general applicability, so this seems a straw man argument.

Also I am unaware of it being blindly touted as the "premier" audio recording technology. It's a tweak, pure and simple. Well made hardware devices of all types beyond the CD-RW world may have optional tweaks installed that have limited utility under special circumstances. This is usually considered to be a feature of a premium product. These types of features, even if not used, are usually considered favorably by users as an option increasing flexibility. They are not usually criticized because they are not of general utility when they were designed and described as being for special purposes. :wink:

nicely said! :D
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Postby rdgrimes on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:24 pm

jricci
If I were you, I'd get some old Verbatim 16x media, (Azo Blue), burn it at 12x on a nice inexpensive LiteOn 52x drive. (Verbatim Vinyl is a more expensive alternative). And always carry a discman with line-out, just in case. TY (Fuji) discs will also work in most players.
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Postby Inertia on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:26 pm

jricci,

As you may have deduced from this thread so far, there is no simple hardware solution to your playability problems with CD-R discs.

The fact is that that CD's have detailed specifications and hardware does not. The CD-RW burner has to find an unspecified way to use the CD specifications to record to CD-R, and the player has to find a way to play it back.

Therefore, using a variety of players as you do with a variety of CD-R recordings leads to problems with some players. Most of the problems can be improved by using a CD-R media that is compatible with most of the players.

If you go to the same locations and use the same players frequently, then a special purpose tweak like the Plextor VariRec may have some utility for you. If this is the case, the new Plextor Premium might be a good choice for a burner. In the worst cases, when all else failed, you might find a "tweak" setting that works for the problem players.

The more compelling part of the puzzle, though, is the media. I would recommend trying TY (Taiyo Yuden) media, usually packaged in the U.S. as Fuji media. It should be marked "Made in Japan" on the package. This is high quality media with good general compatibility. You could try this and other media recommended in the Media Compatibility With CD-RW Drives - Which Media Is Best?
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Postby aviationwiz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:46 pm

cfitz wrote:Hah! Another reply snuck in while I was composing. :)

I guess I am not making myself clear.

Inertia wrote:I personally have never heard or read that anyone thought that VariRec had general applicability, so this seems a straw man argument.

I didn't want to point fingers, but aviationwiz has listed VariRec as the general answer for audio recording in a number of recent threads. He may understand that it is just a tweak, but he isn't explaining it as such. He just says things like "For audio, I would turn on VariRec" and "VariRec on the Plextor Premium is very good." Statements like these don't present enough detail for the reader to understand all the implications and limitations. Thus, I felt the need to elaborate. So, I don't feel that I am arguing against a straw man.

Inertia wrote:These types of features, even if not used, are usually considered favorably by users as an option increasing flexibility.

I have no problem with this, as long as the full story is told. Again, my main reason for posting in this thread was that I don't feel VariRec is the right solution for jricci's problem, and I didn't feel that the full story was told initially.

cfitz


I also mentioned Advanced Audio Master on the F1!
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Postby cfitz on Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:13 pm

aviationwiz wrote:I also mentioned Advanced Audio Master on the F1!

Yes. I am not trying to take that away from you. And just for the record, I am not assailing you personally or even your postings in general. I simply disagree with the way you have presented the capabilities of VariRec.

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Postby daveman_84 on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:29 am

I have a relatively simple answer.

Get any decent drive. Use the same media every time, Fuji TY to have the best, and make sure it works fine with the drive. Burn at 4x. That's what I do, and I have myself very reliable burns that work in car, home, etc.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:52 am

burning at 4x + using current media = low quality burns!

new media does not burn as well at 4x or 8x as it does at speeds of 12x or 16x.
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Postby daveman_84 on Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:17 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:burning at 4x + using current media = low quality burns!

new media does not burn as well at 4x or 8x as it does at speeds of 12x or 16x.


Oops...my bad. Why is that the case? Is it because they are optimized for faster speeds?
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Postby robertb on Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:09 pm

I get the feeling that there are quite a few cd music players out there which still only want to read 74 minute cd's . Understandable since a couple of years back this was all you could buy.
I have one here that refuses to see music disks over 72.2 minutes playtime.
I suppose it isn't possible to carry your own player with you (Laptop?) and plug it into the amplification/sound system when you arrive
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Postby robertb on Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:20 pm

Oh and by the way
If you convert your music into mp3 format (free programs to do this available on the net) you can not only fit about 150 standard length tunes onto a normal 80 minute cd but you can sort your tunes into rock jazz or whatever.
So on one ordinary cd you would have 10 hours disco playtime.
The punters can dance themselves silly and you only have to burn one cd.
Hmm you may know all this already so I'll stop for the moment
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:10 pm

daveman_84 wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:burning at 4x + using current media = low quality burns!

new media does not burn as well at 4x or 8x as it does at speeds of 12x or 16x.


Oops...my bad. Why is that the case? Is it because they are optimized for faster speeds?


pretty much yeah. Some of the older media that is still around can be burned at 4x and 8x without any problems, but the older the media is the more likely it will have big errors on it when you finally burn it. Un burned media has a shelf life of between 5-10 years, usually closer to 5.

Check out some of my reviews on my webpage if you are interested. Almost every CD-R type I have tested has shown optimal results in the 12x-16x burning speed range. Even the 99min CD-Rs made by CMC I just tested showed their best performance at 12x!

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Postby blakerwry on Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:17 pm

I believe this is because dyes need to be more sensitive in order to support being burned at higher speed. The increased sensitivity means that stray light from the lazer could result in changes to the data area neighboring where the lazer is writing. At a slower burn speed you are increasing the time the dye is exposed to this stray light and thus increasing the chance that there will be data errors.

All CD-Rs have an exceptable range of speeds, but are optimized for only 1 speed. Using a higher quality burner will help, but burning at the correct speed is most important for the majority of people. I think I've also found 16x to be a good speed for new media.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:42 pm

blakerwry wrote:All CD-Rs have an exceptable range of speeds, but are optimized for only 1 speed.


I don't believe this is correct. Or at least, it is not likely to be. I think it is more of a range they are optomised for, not a specific speed. I don't think the process is THAT exact LOL!
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