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Fearfull results with TY media. (BAD BONDING )

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby Scour on Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:20 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote: I don't know TOO much about them personally, but I've got a few samples I'll play with when I get the chance to.


I think it´s very hard to get this media, it was produced long time ago
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:17 pm

Scour wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote: I don't know TOO much about them personally, but I've got a few samples I'll play with when I get the chance to.


I think it´s very hard to get this media, it was produced long time ago


You mean the 2x DVD-Rs right? The 4x Gold DVD-Rs from MAM just came out a month or two ago! :o
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Postby Scour on Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:15 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:
You mean the 2x DVD-Rs right? The 4x Gold DVD-Rs from MAM just came out a month or two ago! :o


Yes, the 2x.

You´re right with the 4x, they avaible:

http://www.feurio.com/feurio-cgi/shop2. ... TEP=6#3782

http://shop.cdfreaks.com/index/4/2/2/201
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Postby RJW on Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:01 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
Scour wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote: I don't know TOO much about them personally, but I've got a few samples I'll play with when I get the chance to.


I think it´s very hard to get this media, it was produced long time ago


You mean the 2x DVD-Rs right? The 4x Gold DVD-Rs from MAM just came out a month or two ago! :o


Yes but MAM's behaviour has caused me to have zero faith in these guys.
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Postby Scour on Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:39 pm

RJW wrote:
Yes but MAM's behaviour has caused me to have zero faith in these guys.


Since Mitsui called MAM I don´t have any faith in this media
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:28 pm

Scour wrote:
RJW wrote:
Yes but MAM's behaviour has caused me to have zero faith in these guys.


Since Mitsui called MAM I don´t have any faith in this media


I don't blame either of you!! But I've still had quite good results with MAM's Gold CD-Rs (which is about the only product of their I'd still buy). I'm willing to give their Gold DVDRs a chance at least. Heh, as a reviewer, I'm supposed to give everything a fair chance right? :roll:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby frank1 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:25 am

I bought some of these 3 brands of DVD-RAM you can see below and started archiving on them (even videos in the DVD format to read on a Panasonic DVD-S49 standalone)

Does anybody know if the DVD-RAM's in general are manufactured with a better quality [also the bonding quality] than DVD R's
maybe just because less companies make DVD-RAM's in smaler quantities ?
and they are not intented to be sold so cheap ...



Media code M01 J3003
2-3x certified with HARD COATING
Image


Media code M01 J3003 or 3004
Image


Mediacode MXL16 : Maxell certified 5x
with BCM (Bismuth Coupling Material) recording layer technology
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Postby Halc on Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:21 am

It's difficult to say.

Nobody really tests bonding.

DVD-RAM wouldn't be my 1st choice for archival though, good defect management or not (it's phase change).
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:34 am

Halc wrote:DVD-RAM wouldn't be my 1st choice for archival though, good defect management or not (it's phase change).


Agreed! I don't trust Phase change with ANY important data over the long term.... but for important stuff being frequently re-written, DVD-RAM is still my #1 choice!! :D
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby Scour on Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:45 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:Agreed! I don't trust Phase change with ANY important data over the long term.... but for important stuff being frequently re-written, DVD-RAM is still my #1 choice!! :D


Real important data I store on more than one disc :)
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:21 am

Halc wrote:DVD-RAM wouldn't be my 1st choice for archival though, good defect management or not (it's phase change).

is there any reliable testing that has been done that shows that DVD-RAM is less reliable than DVD+/-R w.r.t longevity ?
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:54 am

dodecahedron wrote:
Halc wrote:DVD-RAM wouldn't be my 1st choice for archival though, good defect management or not (it's phase change).

is there any reliable testing that has been done that shows that DVD-RAM is less reliable than DVD+/-R w.r.t longevity ?


Is there any *reliable* testing method for showing DVD longevity? :-?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby RJW on Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:43 pm

You can test stability under specific conditions.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:00 pm

RJW wrote:You can test stability under specific conditions.


But have we ever seen anything conclusive showing that these specific conditions adequately equate a disc's life under prolonged NORMAL conditions?

But of course, everyone's "normal" conditions are different anyways :-?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:15 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:Is there any *reliable* testing method for showing DVD longevity? :-?

then why do you say you don't trust phase-change media?
saying you had bad experience with CD-RW is not enough (nor with DVD+/-RW for that matter).
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:18 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:Is there any *reliable* testing method for showing DVD longevity? :-?

then why do you say you don't trust phase-change media?
saying you had bad experience with CD-RW is not enough (nor with DVD+/-RW for that matter).


Paranoia :wink:

I just don't trust my data to remain perminantely secure on a medium that is manufactured to be able to switch from retaining data to being blank when hit with just the right laser...
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby Halc on Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:11 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
Halc wrote:DVD-RAM wouldn't be my 1st choice for archival though, good defect management or not (it's phase change).

is there any reliable testing that has been done that shows that DVD-RAM is less reliable than DVD+/-R w.r.t longevity ?


I don't know such tests.

I base my opinion on longer term chemical instability of phase change material (as seen by OSTA experts) and somewhat supported by longevity claims by manufacturers:

http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa11.htm

However, this is all theory. I'd like to see tests on this too, but I know of none (equal test for dvd+/-r and dvd-ram, various dyes for dvd-/+r). The only remotely such is the ct test (afaik):

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... ge=6&pp=25
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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:34 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:Is there any *reliable* testing method for showing DVD longevity? :-?

then why do you say you don't trust phase-change media?
saying you had bad experience with CD-RW is not enough (nor with DVD+/-RW for that matter).


Paranoia :wink:

I just don't trust my data to remain perminantely secure on a medium that is manufactured to be able to switch from retaining data to being blank when hit with just the right laser...

let me re-arrange your words a bit:
"I just don't trust my data to remain perminantely secure on a medium that is manufactured to be able to switch from being blank to retaining data when hit with just the right laser..."
i take it you're talking about organic-dye based DVD+/-R, right ? :wink:

now Paranoia - that's a good enough reason for me. but entirely subjective alas.

@Halc:
thanks for the links.
however the first doesn't give any concrete info, like you said.
when i get a bit of time i'll try to read that CDFreaks topic entirely.

if only i had enough money to buy MO.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:10 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:Is there any *reliable* testing method for showing DVD longevity? :-?

then why do you say you don't trust phase-change media?
saying you had bad experience with CD-RW is not enough (nor with DVD+/-RW for that matter).


Paranoia :wink:


It's more that I don't like entrusting data to a medium that can be erased. If the disc is being used, and someone makes a mistake or hits the wrong button, then it's tough luck!
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby dodecahedron on Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:50 pm

point taken. but that's user error.
but on the other hand, defect management! :D
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Postby frank1 on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:33 pm

Thanks a lot for this talk about the DVD's made out of "phase change material"
because it not so often that they are taken in consideration ..


I just like to add these links:

" Think twice before you write once "
http://www.storagesearch.com/pegasusart3.html

" Study says DVD-RAM provides safest bet for data storage "
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/9765
It remains unclear to me if this means
safest because of the defect management for data (not video)
or safest for long time conservation
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Postby Halc on Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:22 pm

I'm not sure you read the cdfreaks article snippet carefully:

"Investigation into three formats of rewritable DVD drives and media including DVD-RAM, DVD-RW and +RW"

The comment was about DVD-RAM being "better" due to it's defect management (compared to DVD-/+RW).

Not because DVD-RAM is inherently better than DVD+/-R (not RW), because it isn't.
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Postby RJW on Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:52 am

Ehh incase of the caddy version it does have some advantages of it's own when it comes to handleing.
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Postby frank1 on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:45 am

Thanks to all for your contributions !

Does anybody know if DVD-RAM's are made with
exactly the same phase change material as DVD RW's ?
- or is the BMC layer (Bismuth Coupling Material used for Maxell 5x certified) even of better quality
- and on top of that the bonding better for DVD RAM's ...




I just report here the new climatic tests results (Stab. rating) which c't Magazine published in it's 20/2005 issue.
These tests were made on 2 rewritable DVD's
and the summary by MediumRare in this post:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13405&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=170


Code: Select all
                               DVD-R 16x     DVD-RW 6x      DVD+RW 8x
                     Bound     Taiyo Yuden   Verbatim       Ricoh   
                               TYG03         MKM 01RW6X01   RICOHJPN W21(001)
AxialN  [mu]         0.2        0.257          0.150          0.220   
RadialN [nm]         25        18.9           33.0           16.0     
RRO [mu]             70        20.9           43.8           46.3     
Mech. Index/ Grade             84 / ++         74 / +         69 / + 
Writing quality                 0              --              -
Clim. Stability                ++              ++              ++






The comment of MediumRare:
« The rewritables do very well in the stability tests because
the phase change material used is more robust than the organic dyes used in write-once media.
In fact, the error rates for the Ricoh discs decreased after the heat and humidity treatment.
The RW's have excellent physical properties so that the writing problems (esp. Verbatim -RW) should decrease with better firmware »
Last edited by frank1 on Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RJW on Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:08 am

Hmm I wouldn't make that big conclusions as
the phase change material used is more robust than the organic dyes

Under different conditions phase change materials behaviour can perform much worse as organic dyes. Also the other way arround.
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