Home News Reviews Forums Shop


Fearfull results with TY media. (BAD BONDING )

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Fearfull results with TY media. (BAD BONDING )

Postby RJW on Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:28 am

Some people seem to think that C't made a mistake because of the bad score in the longlivety test.
Well if C't disc's were just as bad bonded as the followeing then it suprised how good it performed still.

Today I noticed some space between the 2 layers. So I put a little stress on it with a screwdriver and I know have some FUJI TY's in 2 pieces.

Bad bonding would have speeded the diffusion of water in the ageing test much makeing this media not good for archiveing. (These type of errors would cause that a NIST test to be so time consumeing. Is this error a incident ? A larger incident ? or a real TY problem ?. As you can see you would have to use quite some ammounts to get a statistical reliable answer for that. )

Also this fact probally falls not under waranty because the disc's could have worked normally for some months.

So for all people who archive important stuff on any media.
Allways check the bonding quality.
ALLWAYS check if there's space between the layers. Press the layers in the center hub slightly to each other if you hear a squeeking noice then do not use this disc for long time storrage !!!

For the unbelievers here is a nice composition. As you can see it is TY GD00 can roughly be spotted if you look well (enlarge it) just at the heigth of Fuji's up to 4x.
Attachments
Taiyo.jpg
Taiyo.jpg (245.18 KiB) Viewed 4465 times
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby Ian on Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:53 am

Ughh.. that's not good. How long have you had those discs?
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14882
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby RJW on Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:40 am

The package was opened today. It has probally sitting at my home for a year.
It wasn't burned. I allways check befor burning if there's space between the layers. If there is then it won't be used for any important stuff.

So far I only had bonding problems befor with cheap hongkong stuff I burned for third parties and now a few of these FUJI TY's.
Last edited by RJW on Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby Ian on Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:34 am

I wonder how old they were before you bought them.
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs
User avatar
Ian
Grand Poobah
 
Posts: 14882
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:34 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Postby RJW on Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:00 pm

I can check up when the store got this stock. That's no problem.

However you probally want to know when TY made them.
Which would be much harder to track but might not be that impossible if we can live with a rough estimate.

Also a friend of me has the same problem with his FUJI 8x DVD-R by Taiyo yuden.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:51 pm

I've had the same problem with a batch of Maxell 8x DVD-Rs before (Japanese!).

Still, this does not bode well for Taiyo Yuden... Have you contacted their office in Europe yet?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby [buck] on Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:37 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:I've had the same problem with a batch of Maxell 8x DVD-Rs before (Japanese!).


I've had that problem with Jap Maxells in SEVERAL batches! :evil:
User avatar
[buck]
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:49 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA

Postby Gabe on Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:31 pm

Rencor wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:I've had the same problem with a batch of Maxell 8x DVD-Rs before (Japanese!).


I've had that problem with Jap Maxells in SEVERAL batches! :evil:


You guys mean Maxell from TY or Maxell in general

In c´t TY +R 8x looks good, -R 8x bad. So the +R don´t have this problem.

BTW, TY DVD-R 16x seems to have a very good stability
WD: WD6400AAKS, WD10EALS, WD20EARS, WD10EALS
Hitachi: 7K1000.B 1 TB, 7K1000.C 1 TB, 7K2000 2TB, 7K3000 2TB
Seagate: ST2000DL003, ST31000528AS
Samsung HD204UI
LG GH-22NS50
Plextor PX 755 1.04
Benq DW 1670 1.03
Optiarc AD 7173A 1.01
Asus DRW 20B1LT 1.00
Gabe
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:35 am

Postby hoxlund on Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:00 pm

dude that actually looks kickass
Fractal Design Define R5 White Window Case
Corsair RM1000 Power Supply
MSI X99A XPower AC USB 3.1 Motherboard
Intel i7-5930K CPU @ 4.8GHz
Corsair H100i GTX 240mm CPU Cooler
Mushkin Blackline 4x8GB DDR4 2400 Memory
Asus 980Ti Strix OC
User avatar
hoxlund
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 12:55 am
Location: RAF Lakenheath / Suffolk United Kingdom

Postby aviationwiz on Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:10 pm

Wow, that's like when in Chemistry class, a test tube literally fell apart when we set it down gently in the drawer. It just fell apart, and it was like a clean cut.
User avatar
aviationwiz
Plextor Fan(atic)
 
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:55 am
Location: Home of the Red Tail

Postby [buck] on Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:42 pm

Gabe wrote:
Rencor wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:I've had the same problem with a batch of Maxell 8x DVD-Rs before (Japanese!).


I've had that problem with Jap Maxells in SEVERAL batches! :evil:


You guys mean Maxell from TY or Maxell in general

In c´t TY +R 8x looks good, -R 8x bad. So the +R don´t have this problem.

BTW, TY DVD-R 16x seems to have a very good stability


I mean Maxell-coded Maxells. I've had a couple spindles where, at least some of the discs, weren't bonded until like a centimetre into the hub, ie you the color was noticibly different, it had to be air.

I've also had discs with just tiny bubbles around the hub. I can't say i'm terribly concerned about these, though.
User avatar
[buck]
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:49 am
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:22 pm

Rencor wrote:I mean Maxell-coded Maxells. I've had a couple spindles where, at least some of the discs, weren't bonded until like a centimetre into the hub, ie you the color was noticibly different, it had to be air.

I've also had discs with just tiny bubbles around the hub. I can't say i'm terribly concerned about these, though.


I meant the Maxell coded ones as well.

I find it interesting however, that not TOO long ago, there was a very large amount of Fuji DVD+R TY media that had horrible results... now there are Fuji DVD-Rs TY discs that are poorly bonded. Does Taiyo Yuden *HATE* Fuji?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby RJW on Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:08 am

Gabe wrote:
In c´t TY +R 8x looks good, -R 8x bad. So the +R don´t have this problem.

BTW, TY DVD-R 16x seems to have a very good stability


C't was lucky to have a good bonded +R batch,which are most batches of TY.
But the problem also exists with +R see:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showpost.php?p ... tcount=136

I think this is a allmost uncontrolable problem TY has except for usseing a different bonding methode or usseing to much glue (makeing it look cheap and takeing other problems a long) I don't think it will be solved.
Also contacting will probally not help. I didn't contact Taiyo Yuden or FUJI at this time and don't expect much.

And more manufacturers have/had this problem:Maxell,Prodisc,Sky(as reports come in. I'm expecting more manufacturers to follow. ) Some hongkong stuff are at this time known. :o
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:20 am

It's funny how the best names in the business (TY and Maxell) are having problems with this, when one of the worst names for quality assurence (Ritek) is known for almost NEVER having a problem like this.

I'd still take Taiyo Yuden over Ritek any day though. And I still haven't seen any non-Fuji brand poorly bonded TY discs reported. Has anyone else?
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby frank1 on Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:29 am

Among these FUJIFILM branded DVD's I have some:

DVD-R 4x:
MID code: FUJIFILM02
Prodisc S03

DVD-R 8x:
Prodisc F01

DVD+R 16x:
Philips-C16-001 with Oxonol dye developed by Fujifilm


Are some of these MID codes also kown to be concerned by this bonding problem ?
User avatar
frank1
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:59 am

Postby RJW on Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:38 am

Not only FUJI Ty's had this problem 2x That's also had it.

This problem has been spotted on prodisc manufacturerd disc with F01 code.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showpost.php?p ... tcount=135

But still it would be a good idea to check all the important stuff which was supposed to last some time on media. If it has this type of failure I strongly suggest reburn !!

As soon as I found the disc back I post some other example of weird bonding.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby ETP on Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:17 am

So! Is there any perfect media after this goat rope! LOL
Man, I thought ty+R MIJ was perfect.LOL

BQ 1640 BSOB
NEC 4550 1.6T
Plextor 716a 1.09
Pioneer 109/A09 158
Pioneer 110/A10 1.39
Liteon 5005
Sony 875P & 333ES
Liteon 5005
HK7200
Hitachi 61SDX
Two Dell 8400s & 9100 with SATA HDs
User avatar
ETP
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: NW FL Panhandle/LA=Lower Ala

Postby RJW on Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:24 am

OKay here is the second example.
This disc is made by Ritek with RICOH code. Why the result looks weird and something I won't trust for long time archiveing. I can't pull the halves from each other. There is no movement in it.
Still not sure if it are airbubbles/to much glue or a combination.

Oh and guess the brand this disc was sold under.
:D
Attachments
bonding2.jpg
bonding2.jpg (143.24 KiB) Viewed 3928 times
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby RJW on Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:32 am

There is no perfect media. I've been saying that for a long time but people like to think it's easy.
Only thing is that Mitsubishi (and partners) and TY are just haveing less problems as others or there brands(verbatim/Plextor) have a better waranty.
RJW
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: The netherlands

Postby Halc on Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:04 pm

Man oh man... I'm away for a couple of months and you guys dig up new dirt about discs to bring my hope down :)

This place is seriously detrimental to one's digital archival faith, let me tell you that.

If TY and Maxell can't be trusted for their QC either, then who are we to trust with our archival copies?
User avatar
Halc
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:13 am

Postby dolphinius_rex on Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:46 pm

Halc wrote:Man oh man... I'm away for a couple of months and you guys dig up new dirt about discs to bring my hope down :)

This place is seriously detrimental to one's digital archival faith, let me tell you that.

If TY and Maxell can't be trusted for their QC either, then who are we to trust with our archival copies?


Blind faith in any company is poorly placed :wink:

But don't worry Halc, with a little careful eyework, and good planning, it's not impossible to find good media still :)
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby Halc on Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:46 pm

Yes, I've learned it the hard way during the past ten years or so.

However, the problem is that 99% of people doing archiving have no time to hang around in forums every day.

Even I have hard time doing it monthly these days.

Why, oh why can't anybody just STEP UP to the challenge and provide a disc that is certified by 3rd party to at least withstand accelerated aging well (humidity + temp + EMW) and have excellent QA.

These people would secure the archival market for their own.

They could charge 10 times the going price of a quality Japanese disc.

Nobody in the archival business would care, they'd just pony up the money and buy in bulk.

But nobody is doing it. Everybody is just offering diminishing quality and worsening promises about longevity.

Oh, the humanity :)
User avatar
Halc
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:13 am

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:37 pm

Halc wrote:Yes, I've learned it the hard way during the past ten years or so.

However, the problem is that 99% of people doing archiving have no time to hang around in forums every day.

Even I have hard time doing it monthly these days.

Why, oh why can't anybody just STEP UP to the challenge and provide a disc that is certified by 3rd party to at least withstand accelerated aging well (humidity + temp + EMW) and have excellent QA.

These people would secure the archival market for their own.

They could charge 10 times the going price of a quality Japanese disc.

Nobody in the archival business would care, they'd just pony up the money and buy in bulk.

But nobody is doing it. Everybody is just offering diminishing quality and worsening promises about longevity.

Oh, the humanity :)


Tried MAM's gold DVDRs yet? What about Emtec's?? I've never had a MAM disc seperate on me (although previous MAM discs have had OTHER problems...)
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Postby Scour on Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:54 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
Tried MAM's gold DVDRs yet? What about Emtec's?? I've never had a MAM disc seperate on me (although previous MAM discs have had OTHER problems...)


I heard about MAM Gold-disc DVD-R 2x are awful. Not readable after one year
Benq DW 1640, LG GH-20N, Pioneer BDR-208
Crucial M4, Sandisk SSD, Plextor M5S, Sandisk Ultra Plus, OCZ Petrol 256GB

cu
Scour
Scour
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: Germany

Postby dolphinius_rex on Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:06 pm

Scour wrote:
dolphinius_rex wrote:
Tried MAM's gold DVDRs yet? What about Emtec's?? I've never had a MAM disc seperate on me (although previous MAM discs have had OTHER problems...)


I heard about MAM Gold-disc DVD-R 2x are awful. Not readable after one year


MAM Gold 2x DVDRs haven't existed for a LONG time, and are completely different from MAM 4x DVD-Rs. They had to completely redesign the media (so it'd work! :P). I don't know TOO much about them personally, but I've got a few samples I'll play with when I get the chance to.
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
User avatar
dolphinius_rex
CD-RW Player
 
Posts: 6923
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:14 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada

Next

Return to DVD Writers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot] and 2 guests

All Content is Copyright (c) 2001-2017 CDRLabs Inc.