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Mozilla Suite gone, Now What ?

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Mozilla Suite gone, Now What ?

Postby stix on Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:59 am

Anyone around here been using Mozilla Suite? I have been using it for years, browser and email, and recently found out that it is history. The last time I tried Firefox, I thought it sucked. Apparently there is a movement afoot with something called "SeaMonkey" to follow in the footsteps of Mozilla.

you aren't all using IE, are you?

What gives?
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Postby TheWizard on Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:01 am

I just use Firefox and Thunderbird separately. I'm pretty sure they accomplish what the Mozilla Suite did.
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Postby Ian on Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:09 am

I use IE 7. With its new features, I have no reason to use Firefox, etc.

As a sys admin, I have a hard time promoting Firefox. They need to learn how to release a security patch instead of rolling out a whole new version.
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Postby pranav81 on Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:39 am

I still use Netscape 7.2.Works best for me,until & unless I visit a Microsoft website.

CDRLabs opens up fine in Netscape & I simply love the tabbed browsing feature in Netscape.Never came to like Firefox though.

Havent yet installed IE7.

Howz IE 7,Ian?Which crashes first?Windows or IE7? 8)


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Postby Ian on Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:26 am

Windows? Crash? Pfft.. if it weren't for patches, my up time would be measured in months.

I'm running beta 1 of IE 7 and I've had very few problems aside from some retardedness at Apple's website. I think its crashed once in the past 3-4 months which is surprising considering I have it open 24/7.
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Postby Alejandra on Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:48 am

I use Safari, even on the PC :D
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Postby Justin42 on Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:21 pm

Starting with Firefox/Thunderbird 1.5 they can, and do, only release incremental patches through the auto-update. I set up a machine for my aunt a few months back and it's been working great. They took a bit longer to release Thunderbird 1.5 final but it's finally out today.

I would NEVER use IE as a primary browser until MS has a much longer, better streak of security issues. Say what you will about upgrading Firefox/Moz/Netscape but in many cases, the vulnerabilites are much more esoteric. Sure, there are problems, but how many viruses have you seen that spread through Mozilla vulnerabilities? You don't NEED to patch Moz the same way you NEED to patch IE. *should* you, for best security? Of course. But will you expose your system to a likely 0 day exploit if you hold off? Not as likely.

As forSeamonkey. It's basically the same as Mozilla was. They're getting ready for a 1.0 release (it's been in the works for months), with 1.5 pretty far along (although the nightlies since the beginning of the year have been really crashy for me on my work PC :/ :/ )

I think Firefox was both a smart and dumb move. They took code that was NOT ready for prime time and whipped a browser together (Netscape 6, anyone?). Until version 1.5, Firefox worked horribly in corporate environments, where Mozilla worked beautifully. They've really worked hard on the "user experience" but they dropped the ball horribly on corporate features while discontinuing the product that worked great. It was a dumb move, and one I don't see enough people taking them to task over. (I don't get how the Mozilla foundation makes decisions, it seems like someone gets a bug up their butt and next thing you know everything gets turned on its head, whether or not it is a "good thing" for the browser/organization).
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Postby dodecahedron on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:10 pm

what?
i never knew (till reading here) that Mozilla was gone!

for some strange reason, my Firefox didn't notify me that there was an update to 1.5! i'm still on 1.0.7. when was 1.5 released ?

i never could figure out what's the differences between Firefox and Mozilla (browser). seemed just differnce interface. Firefox however has more extensions.
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Postby Ian on Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:03 pm

Justin42 wrote:I would NEVER use IE as a primary browser until MS has a much longer, better streak of security issues. Say what you will about upgrading Firefox/Moz/Netscape but in many cases, the vulnerabilites are much more esoteric. Sure, there are problems, but how many viruses have you seen that spread through Mozilla vulnerabilities? You don't NEED to patch Moz the same way you NEED to patch IE. *should* you, for best security? Of course. But will you expose your system to a likely 0 day exploit if you hold off? Not as likely.


Over the past 6 or so months, there have been just as many, if not more, security issues with Firefox as with IE. They outbreaks aren't as bad though because there are less people using the browser. The browser doesn't keep you safe from Windows vulnerabilities either like that wmf exploit.

I repeatedly hear the same arguments as to why Firefox is supposedly "better". Unfortunately, until they start taking the corporate world more seriously with centralized patching and configuration, you're not going to see it as the default browser in wide spread deployments.

Once IE 7 ships.. their market share is probably going to shrink anyway.. at least on Windows. :P
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Postby Spazmogen on Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:08 pm

I personally use Firefox for surfing, and Gmail.

@ home (for family stuff) we use Netscape 7.2
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Postby LoneWolf on Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:41 pm

Ian wrote:
Justin42 wrote:I would NEVER use IE as a primary browser until MS has a much longer, better streak of security issues. Say what you will about upgrading Firefox/Moz/Netscape but in many cases, the vulnerabilites are much more esoteric. Sure, there are problems, but how many viruses have you seen that spread through Mozilla vulnerabilities? You don't NEED to patch Moz the same way you NEED to patch IE. *should* you, for best security? Of course. But will you expose your system to a likely 0 day exploit if you hold off? Not as likely.


Over the past 6 or so months, there have been just as many, if not more, security issues with Firefox as with IE. They outbreaks aren't as bad though because there are less people using the browser. The browser doesn't keep you safe from Windows vulnerabilities either like that wmf exploit.

I repeatedly hear the same arguments as to why Firefox is supposedly "better". Unfortunately, until they start taking the corporate world more seriously with centralized patching and configuration, you're not going to see it as the default browser in wide spread deployments.

Once IE 7 ships.. their market share is probably going to shrink anyway.. at least on Windows. :P
I agree with you from the corporate perspective. Even though Firefox now supports incremental patching, there's no easy centralized way of distributing those patches, especially if you lock your users' systems down for security (Firefox has downloaded a patch, would you like to install it? Oh wait, you can't! You're not the Administrator!). IE7 will likely take the corporate desktop; its tight integration with the OS may be a security issue sometimes, but it allows for centralized management through group policies under a Windows domain, and for patch management through a WSUS server.

As for myself though, I still use Firefox both home and work (Thunderbird at home for mail, OL2k3 at work). I've been burned too many times by MS betas to try IE7 (IE4 beta and even final release b0rked my whole system, as MS had a bug with Matrox GPU's which were the bomb at the time for enthusiasts, they had to release a patch). I like Firefox's capability for extensions, which really are cool if you make use of them. I also find that while FF and IE may have similar bug-rates, Firefox isn't less vulnerable because of market share, but because it isn't tied so tightly with the operating system. MS has had vulnerabilities where a rogue ActiveX plugin (provided you don't lock them down through security measures) could auto-install and take down everything. Even with the newest IE 6 for XP, a user will likely install whatever they're prompted to, if they have the rights. The 1.5 release has really improved the speed as well; if you base your experiences with FF on 1.0.x, it doesn't quite compare.

As for Mozilla Suite, I don't mourn it...though my dad does. It's about the only setup he's ever run (I have a PowerMac tower running OS X for him), and while I've shown him Firefox and Safari, once he's set on something it's hard to switch.
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Postby Ian on Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:05 pm

LoneWolf wrote:IE7 will likely take the corporate desktop; its tight integration with the OS may be a security issue sometimes, but it allows for centralized management through group policies under a Windows domain, and for patch management through a WSUS server.


From what I hear, they're actually going to change a lot of that with Vista. When you run IE 7 there, it runs in a sandbox. Unfortunately, those improvements aren't going to make it to XP. :evil:
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Postby stix on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:19 am

Great to hear where everybody is at with this topic! Thanks for a great discussion. Enjoying the info and insight.

Mozilla Suite is "gone" in the sense that 1.7.12 is apparently the final version. Seamonkey seems to be an attempt to pick up and continue from that point on. Firefox is another matter, hasn't won me over yet, but I'm going to try the newest version.

I only use IE when I have to. It may be the preferred browser in a corporate environment. Other than having that going for it, it is slow, lacking, and out of date; not to mention it never was original, and it is part of the Evil Empire. I will not go over to The Dark Side. My guess is IE 7 will be, at least in part, an attempt to catch up by adding superior features that have long been available in Mozilla and perhaps elsewhere.
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Postby dodecahedron on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:26 am

OK.
i got redirected to mozilla.com and you can't find Mozilla suite there, i'd thought it was really gone!!!! but mozilla.org still has it.

anyway, what's the difference between Mozilla and Firefox ?
i tried Mozilla once, didn't like the appearance, seemed to be just the same as Firefox. Firefox has more extensions though. saw no point to it (for me at least).
what am i missing ?
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Postby pranav81 on Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:01 am

I am downloading IE7 at the moment.I would like to see the 'improvements' that Microsoft has made to this browser.Pity that it needs WinXP,I am at a Win2k machine right now.....


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Postby LoneWolf on Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:22 pm

dodecahedron wrote:OK.
i got redirected to mozilla.com and you can't find Mozilla suite there, i'd thought it was really gone!!!! but mozilla.org still has it.

anyway, what's the difference between Mozilla and Firefox ?
i tried Mozilla once, didn't like the appearance, seemed to be just the same as Firefox. Firefox has more extensions though. saw no point to it (for me at least).
what am i missing ?


Firefox is a lot leaner and meaner, so to speak. The interface is a bit more bare, but it's a faster browser than Mozilla. The newest version also has a few great features previously not available like the "Clear Private Data" button off the tools menu that can instantly clear all private info during the browser (or can be set to clear it on exit, so cookies and other crap don't stay in the browser cache). It's the first browser I've used that I liked the tabs on, and it's totally made me hate IE6 for not having tabs.

Extensions are the other big thing for me. I'm using the following:

Adblock Plus: Block any annoying ad quickly and easily. Note: I only block ads that are highly annoying (read: flash ads that up CPU usage, blinking/musical/pop-up-or-under); I don't block banner ads unless I'm paying for access to a site that has them, it's only fair that ads are the price I pay for a free service.
PDF Download: If I click on a link to a PDF, it offers the option to download it, or view it in a new tab. It also shows me the size of the PDF, making it easier to make the choice.
BugMeNot: Ever get sick and tired of websites that are "free" but require you to give away every bit of private data you have to use them? BugMeNot lets you get around this, so you can read the New York Times online and other sites without violating your privacy.
Allow Right Click: In some, but not all cases, this extension allows you to right-click on objects in web pages that have been locked to prevent this.
Image Zoom: Lets me enlarge images within websites. Especially useful to get a better look at photographs for some online auction items. It's very flexible.
Session Saver: I only use this one at work. Ever have a Microsoft update that wanted you to reboot, but you have ten tabs open in Firefox and really don't want to have to open them all up again? Session Saver keeps track, so if you reboot and open the browser, it will ask if you with to resume your last session or clear it. If you resume, it brings everything back.

There's a few other great ones out there (I loaded one for my dad that tells the weather forecast in the browser status bar based off NOAA data) but it's just so flexible. I wish IE had stuff as useful as this. Not the best option once again for a corporate environment, but for power users, it's unbeatable.
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Postby stix on Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:16 am

dodecahedron wrote:
anyway, what's the difference between Mozilla and Firefox ?
i tried Mozilla once, didn't like the appearance, seemed to be just the same as Firefox. Firefox has more extensions though. saw no point to it (for me at least).
what am i missing ?


My impression:
Mozilla Suite is a more mature, robust application. Firefox is still relatively new.
Until recently Moz had more frequent new releases.
Moz has it's own email application, and other apps. I really like the email app.
Moz was more of a true Open Source alternative, whereas Firefox has already gone commercial.

Some here have mentioned they still use Netscape 7.2 -It is based on Mozilla 1.7 - more on that here:
http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=5180

You can read more on the Mozilla/Seamonkey project, as well as the Firefox project here:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/
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