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Weird Dual Layer Buring Observation

DVD-R/W, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM

Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 pm

ItalianJob wrote:Well I read back this DVD+R DL booktyped to DVD-ROM on my (very) touchy now Philips DVD737 without any problems. There's "The Italian Job" on it, lol !


I didn't say it wouldn't work :wink:

It's just my overly questioning personality. When I see even minor contradictions in what I would expect to see, I like to know why. Obviously, I live a very unsatisfied life in this respect :P
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Postby ItalianJob on Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:16 pm

Sometimes, some strange things happen.
I remember a Maxell DVD+R 4X (Maxell001) giving me a normal scan (max PIF giving a 97, PIE <20) and having trouble reading fluently on my Philips DVD737.
I scan the Maxell again and it gives a very good 97...
I throw it away and burn again on a Plextor blank dvd (TY), the movie is watched everyday by my son without any problem now.

How comes a PI/PIF scan is not enough ? How can we be sure to have a good burn without a doubt ? Must we do a read transfert test too (on what reader/burner) ? must I buy a Liteon for Kprobe test ?
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Postby thegdog on Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:10 pm

I think it probably depends a lot on the individual disc. The first MKM 001 disc I burned with my BenQ 1640 at 8x had a horrible scan afterward. Disc played fine, but the scan was not pretty.

So I had been burning at 4x instead. Scans were better, but not great.

Since it had been a while since I burned one at 8x, I decided to try another one. So I burned one last night at 8x and it looked great. 94 was the final Quality score, with the majority of the spikes being on the second layer. It was also great because the PI Errors never went over 20!

I'm going to burn some more at 8x and see what happens.

BTW, I am using BSLB firmware.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:30 pm

ItalianJob wrote:How comes a PI/PIF scan is not enough ? How can we be sure to have a good burn without a doubt ? Must we do a read transfert test too (on what reader/burner) ? must I buy a Liteon for Kprobe test ?


Well, PI/PIF scores only tell ONE drive's inturpretation of a disc. Not only that, but there are many other types of errors that are not included in PI/PIF testing!

For instance:
POF (although errors of this nature will generally make much higher PI/PIF scores)
Jitter
Beta / Assymetry

There are many other error types, but we can actually test for the ones above!

Personally, I use the DW1640 to test for PI/PIF/POF and Jitter, then I use the LiteON SHW-1635S to test for another perspective of PI/PIF values, and then I use the PX-716SA to offer a third perspective on PI/PIF values, and also scan for Beta/Assymetry.

The whole process takes almost 4 hours when testing a DVD±RDL disc, or ~2 hours on single layer.

For the average user, running a transfer rate test and maybe a PI/PIF scan ought to be enough though... but there will be times where you just CAN'T see the problem with the hardware you have. In times like those, it's good to check out reviews on the drive (if they do a good job!) and see if the media type showed any problems when burned with the same drive as you, in a way that you can't personally test for.

And it's for reasons like that, that I try to hunt down media from all over the world, and don't mind spending 2-4 hours per disc, just in testing :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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Postby jberry on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:22 pm

what do you eat when you are doing all that?
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Postby dodecahedron on Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:14 pm

jberry wrote:what do you eat when you are doing all that?

dolphin-friendly tuna ?
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie
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M.C. Escher - Reptilien
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:14 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
jberry wrote:what do you eat when you are doing all that?

dolphin-friendly tuna ?


And nibs, lot's of nibs :wink:
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

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Postby ItalianJob on Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:24 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:
ItalianJob wrote:How comes a PI/PIF scan is not enough ? How can we be sure to have a good burn without a doubt ? Must we do a read transfert test too (on what reader/burner) ? must I buy a Liteon for Kprobe test ?


Well, PI/PIF scores only tell ONE drive's inturpretation of a disc. Not only that, but there are many other types of errors that are not included in PI/PIF testing!

For instance:
POF (although errors of this nature will generally make much higher PI/PIF scores)
Jitter
Beta / Assymetry

There are many other error types, but we can actually test for the ones above!

Personally, I use the DW1640 to test for PI/PIF/POF and Jitter, then I use the LiteON SHW-1635S to test for another perspective of PI/PIF values, and then I use the PX-716SA to offer a third perspective on PI/PIF values, and also scan for Beta/Assymetry.

The whole process takes almost 4 hours when testing a DVD±RDL disc, or ~2 hours on single layer.

For the average user, running a transfer rate test and maybe a PI/PIF scan ought to be enough though... but there will be times where you just CAN'T see the problem with the hardware you have. In times like those, it's good to check out reviews on the drive (if they do a good job!) and see if the media type showed any problems when burned with the same drive as you, in a way that you can't personally test for.

And it's for reasons like that, that I try to hunt down media from all over the world, and don't mind spending 2-4 hours per disc, just in testing :wink:


Thanks Dolph ! There was no POF and a normal jitter, but maybe
"Beta/Assymetry" or something else. Didn't even know about that :oops:
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:47 pm

ItalianJob wrote:Thanks Dolph ! There was no POF and a normal jitter, but maybe
"Beta/Assymetry" or something else. Didn't even know about that :oops:


Yeah, that's entirely possible. Beta/Assymetry can REALLY mess a disc up if it's too high or two low. That's why I always include Plextor Scans, even though they are the most painfully time consuming things to do in the world!!
Punch Cards -> Paper Tape -> Tape Drive -> 8" Floppy Diskette -> 5 1/4" Floppy Diskette -> 3 1/2" "Flippy" Diskette -> CD-R -> DVD±R -> BD-R

The Progression of Computer Media
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