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Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

General discussion about recordable CD, DVD and BD media and write quality testing.

Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:21 pm

Inertia, I just looked through the irsetup.dat file, and it looks like it is installing the ASPI layer from ForceASPI. I'm still curious to know what tool you used for inspection. Or did you do the same thing I just did?

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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:37 pm

What do you guys think of the idea for an option to allow the user to overlay the two charts on one larger chart with the two parameters plotted in different colors, much like CD Doctor does? That would allow a single chart with more than twice the height of the individual charts K's Probe currently displays to be drawn in less screen space than K's Probe currently uses to draw those two charts individually. I think that would spread out the range of error counts and allow more detail to be visible, for those who prefer it. This would be more valuable for the saved charts, since the zoom tool isn't available on the saved charts.

By the way, I like the new png format for saving files (after all, I voted for it), but it could be made even a little better still. It appears that the png files are being saved with a large color depth. By saving with a reduced color depth of 16 colors (which is sufficient for perfect reproduction since the charts only have 9 unique colors), the file size can be cut almost in half, again.

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Postby MediumRare on Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:12 pm

cfitz wrote:What do you guys think of the idea for an option to allow the user to overlay the two charts on one larger chart with the two parameters plotted in different colors, much like CD Doctor does? That would allow a single chart with more than twice the height of the individual charts K's Probe currently displays to be drawn in less screen space than K's Probe currently uses to draw those two charts individually. I think that would spread out the range of error counts and allow more detail to be visible, for those who prefer it. This would be more valuable for the saved charts, since the zoom tool isn't available on the saved charts.

Are you talking to us plebians or to Abacus and Mr. Wang (to whom I want to send a BIG thank you for adding the PNGs)?

Personally I like that idea. I find the zoom a bit touchy to use and would prefer to be able to set the range (above all the y-scale) in a dialog. This would greatly facilitate comparisons.
[edit]I posted scans of an Ultrsapeed RW here: http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=60849#60849. This shows the similarities and differences of CD Doctor and K's Probe. [/edit]

As usual your suggestions are very good and help show how to make a very good tool even better.

G
Last edited by MediumRare on Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dolphinius_rex on Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:16 pm

Wow! I have been looking at this software for the past day and a half, and all I can say is WOW!! if Jitter testing could be included, I'd probably go into shock! :D

I'm so happy to see that LiteON is producing something to compete with the new plextools being released with the new Plextor Premium drive. I was starting to think I'd have to buy the new plextor premium just to do a good job on my CD-R reviews, but now that I have this software, I don't have to buy a super expensive plextor :D all I have to do is wait for the jitter testing, and I'll be set!

by the way, if an easier to use scaling method could be included at some point I would really REALLY love it! Keep up the good work Mr. Wang, I hope LiteON allows your software to be downloaded from their site...also, you should get a raise! :wink:
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Postby MediumRare on Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:39 pm

(Slightly off-topic) In case anyone else has the same problem: I had problems downloading the program with Opera 7 and switched to IE to do so. I can do this virtually within Opera by using the "Identify as xxx" setting in the quick setup. Pretty well anything other than Opera works.

I doubt if this is news to Old Opera Farts, but I'm still exploring it's possibilities.

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Postby rdgrimes on Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:06 pm

I'm so happy to see that LiteON is producing something

Actually, it was Karr who "produced" it.

What do you guys think of the idea for an option to allow the user to overlay the two charts on one larger chart

Could work, would depend on the resolution of the chart. The CDDoctor chart often gets confusing because the errors overlap. In other words, it might require a much larger chart to display twice as much information on the horizontal plane.
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Postby Inertia on Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:16 pm

cfitz wrote:Inertia, I just looked through the irsetup.dat file, and it looks like it is installing the ASPI layer from ForceASPI. I'm still curious to know what tool you used for inspection. Or did you do the same thing I just did?

cfitz


cfitz,

I used Abacus's Research. :lol: :wink:

Since I already had ForceASPI installed, from the beginning I've always used the update instead of the installation program. :)
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Postby CDHero on Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:20 pm

Why ASPI ?
It is because there is a vendor unique command to start measure
C1C2 will cause system failed at some systems especially on NoteBook.
So I package the ASPI driver with KProbe.
And Kprobe will auto detect the available drivers , if ASPI found , it will
use ASPI first.If ASPI not found or unavailable , it will use Windows
built-in scsi mini-port driver to send ATAPI commands.
But if there is any usb drive existed , kprobe won't use ASPI driver.

After all , KProbe use ASPI driver is only for compatibility !!

You can see what driver KProbe currenly used in "About" tab.
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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:05 pm

Hi Mr. Wang, and welcome aboard! I'm glad you have decided to join the forum. Let me again say what a nice program you have made, and offer my thanks for being so receptive to our suggestions. Please don't let us drive you crazy with change requests, though! :wink:

I'm looking forward to more of your comments in the future.

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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:08 pm

Inertia wrote:I used Abacus's Research. :lol: :wink:

Doh! How quickly I forget. :oops: :lol: You'll have to forgive me for getting caught up in all the excitement. Oh well, at least I added a little more specificity. K's Probe installation installs the 4.60 version included with ForceASPI, which is the safest and best thing to do when it comes to installing ASPI, in my opinion.

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Postby rdgrimes on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:12 pm

What do you guys think of the idea for an option to allow the user to overlay the two charts on one larger chart

Since we're wishing, how about the ability to toggle between either a full-window display of C1 OR C2 OR both?!
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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:15 pm

MediumRare wrote:Are you talking to us plebians or to Abacus and Mr. Wang

I'm talking to everyone except for Canadian expatriates living in Germany! :wink:

Just kidding. I am, of course, talking to everyone here who has an interest in K's Probe, including you.

rdgrimes wrote:In other words, it might require a much larger chart to display twice as much information on the horizontal plane.

A valid concern. Part of it is obviated by the fact that K's Probe draws a line chart as opposed to CD Doctor's bar chart (each point depicted by a bar from zero up to the error count value). This means the two curves are much less likely to obscure each other. The rest would be obviated by making the overlay display optional - one could choose two separate displays or one overlay display.

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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:18 pm

rdgrimes wrote:
What do you guys think of the idea for an option to allow the user to overlay the two charts on one larger chart

Since we're wishing, how about the ability to toggle between either a full-window display of C1 OR C2 OR both?!

Hey, synchronicity! I was typing up my reply suggesting the same thing at the same time you were submitting your post. Perhaps if I wasn't so long winded I would have beaten you to the punch. :wink:

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Postby rdgrimes on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:36 pm

Well there's no doubt that Mr Wang has given us a terrific tool, lets hope he doesn't tire of us. It's so refreshing to see a utility that is so thoughtfully designed. As is, it's great.
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Postby MediumRare on Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:06 am

cfitz wrote:
MediumRare wrote:Are you talking to us plebians or to Abacus and Mr. Wang

I'm talking to everyone except for Canadian expatriates living in Germany! :wink:

Just try and keep me away! 8)

rdgrimes wrote:Could work, would depend on the resolution of the chart. The CDDoctor chart often gets confusing because the errors overlap. In other words, it might require a much larger chart to display twice as much information on the horizontal plane.

Personally, I don't think that the overlapping plots are that much of a problem, as long as the scaling is compatible and the priority is right: more severe errors (C2, PO) in front. The C1-rate isn't really that important when the C2-rate get high enough to obscure it. A line plot is nice, though. And a toggle for separate/combined plots is the ideal solution.

rdgrimes wrote:Well there's no doubt that Mr Wang has given us a terrific tool, lets hope he doesn't tire of us. It's so refreshing to see a utility that is so thoughtfully designed. As is, it's great.

Amen!

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Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 7:10 am

cfitz wrote:
Inertia wrote:I used Abacus's Research. :lol: :wink:

Doh! How quickly I forget. :oops: :lol: You'll have to forgive me for getting caught up in all the excitement. Oh well, at least I added a little more specificity. K's Probe installation installs the 4.60 version included with ForceASPI, which is the safest and best thing to do when it comes to installing ASPI, in my opinion.

cfitz


You're absolutely right about using ASPI version 4.60 for stability.
Which build does ForceASPI install: 1019 or 1021? I ask just out curiousity, because I never had to use ForceASPI myself. I used the original Adaptec ASPI installer (v1019) and updated it to v1021.

As far as I remember, ForceASPI was 'released' because Adaptec did not make the original installer public. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the 4.70 and 4.71 layers are released to the public, would it not make sence to publicly share the original 4.60 installer? I don't know Adaptec's official stand on this, but I know the installer is already out there on the web :wink: .

I wish I knew a way to look inside the installer and extract only the files I needed. It's not really an issue in this case, since the .exe file is also available, but if anyone knows how to do this, please share. 8)
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Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:11 am

MikeTR wrote:Which build does ForceASPI install: 1019 or 1021?

1021. At least that is what came in the package I downloaded.

MikeTR wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the 4.70 and 4.71 layers are released to the public, would it not make sence to publicly share the original 4.60 installer?

Well, it would present a bit of a PR problem for them. What do they say to people who have downloaded and installed the later versions with their many files and no uninstall feature? "You didn't really need all those files. You only need four. And those four can easily be uninstalled. And they are more stable for many people than what you installed. Thank you, come again."??

I guess there is no real point for them to share the original version - it would just create confusion. And to be fair it is probably true that the later versions do have some improvements over the earlier versions in some circumstances. I'm just happy that they decided to make available what they did and haven't attacked those who continue to make 4.60 available. Kudos to them for that.

But I digress. Let me return back to the main point at hand. When K's Probe does install ASPI, it installs what many believe to be the most stable version, and one that is easily removed via ForceASPI should problems develop.

MikeTR wrote:I wish I knew a way to look inside the installer and extract only the files I needed. It's not really an issue in this case, since the .exe file is also available, but if anyone knows how to do this, please share.

If you already have ASPI installed, do what Inertia did. Just download the update package (the zip file), extract its contents to the directory of your choice, then add shortcuts/start menu items manually as desired.

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Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:17 am

cfitz wrote:If you already have ASPI installed, do what Inertia did. Just download the update package (the zip file), extract its contents to the directory of your choice, then add shortcuts/start menu items manually as desired.

cfitz


Already done that. That's why I was glad to find just the .exe file available for download. :)

I just wondered if anyone knew how to look into an installer file to view (and extract) the contents. I like to know what I am about to install on my system before I do. Not in this particular case, but with some other programs I've come across before and will in the future.
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Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:29 am

MikeTR wrote:I just wondered if anyone knew how to look into an installer file to view (and extract) the contents. I like to know what I am about to install on my system before I do. Not in this particular case, but with some other programs I've come across before and will in the future.

Ah, okay! It was a general question, not specific to this installer. Yes, I have the same question, which is why I asked Inertia what he used.

It obviously depends on the installer that is used. In some cases I have been able to use WinZip to peek into an installer exe, but not too many. Other times I use the trick of starting the installation, progressing through the installation wizard to the point after which it has extracted files to the temporary directory but before it actually installs anything, and inspecting the files in the temporary directory. That is what I did with K's Probe to discover that it was using the ForceASPI ASPI layer.

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Postby idiot on Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:37 am

Cftiz: Thanks for the correction, I guess one shouldn't post too late in the night.
As for no consumer drives can measure jitter, that point might change on the 14th, when Plextor introduces Plexwriter Premium. The drives package my local distributors have can do it, like whats said in cdrinfo's CeBit article. But, I guess Karr can make Liteons the first to do so, by giving us a new version before then.


Spath: I guess the mess on the terminology is because the various testing equipment manufactures don't care to standarize on it.

how about
C1 = E11 + E21 + E31
C2 = E12 + E22 + Those errors in E32 that can be corrected
CU = any uncorrectable errors.

E32 will have errors that can be corrected and cannot be corrected.


Ian: Consider making this thread sticky.

Karr: Thanks for the program, works great with various OEM versions of firmwares, including Sony and 4kus.
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Postby CDHero on Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:56 am

KProbe 1.1.4 was released.

You can click the following link to check the current version of KProbe.
http://home.pchome.com.tw/cool/cdtools/

You also can click the following link to download files directly.
http://home.pchome.com.tw/cool/cdtools/kprobe.zip
http://home.pchome.com.tw/cool/cdtools/kpsetup.exe

Release notes:
1.Support user defined line color
2.Support chart combination
3.Support user defined Y-axis maximum

Please do not to hesitate to make comments , thanks in advance.
:D
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Postby MikeTR on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:05 pm

And the hits just keep on coming............. :o :o :o

Thanks mr. Wang. :D
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Postby cfitz on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:17 pm

Another fine set of improvements. Thanks Mr. Wang.

I am having trouble downloading the zip file. WinZIP reports it as being corrupted. Is this just me?

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Postby dolphinius_rex on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:18 pm

I wasn't sure at first, but I just did a check and YES, K-Probe DOES support 99min CD-Rs!!! that makes it 10x better then CD-Doctor in my eyes, since CD Doctor only supports up to 90min. Now I can do a PROPER 99min CD-R review :D

Mr. Wang, please ask LiteON IT to make your software official, so that LiteON can properly compete against the new Plextor Plextools!

Great software!!
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Postby rdgrimes on Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:40 pm

I am having trouble downloading the zip file.

It's corrupted here too, but the install version works fine to update.
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