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Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

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Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

Postby Abacus on Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:11 am

I found a new tool which is like CD Doctor and WSES
But it is under development
If you are interesting about it ,
click the following link to download it
http://home.kimo.com.tw/tellove2000/kpsetup.zip

and rename kpsetup.zip to kpsetup.exe

try it !
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:33 am

Nice! :D Thanks a lot, Abacus. Someone posted a screen-shot from this software before (I can't find that post), but this is the first link to the actual software.

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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:24 am

It seems to match up pretty well with WSES/CD Doctor on my LTR-48246S, although the reported error rates seem to be somewhat lower (particularly note the lack of reported C2 errors in the K's CD/DVD Probe test).

K's:
Image

CD Doctor:
Image

Surprisingly, K's even reported some results when I used my LiteOn/JLMS 166S DVD-ROM drive as the test drive:
Image

However, I don't trust the results from the 166S very much. The error levels are low, and they were inconsistent from run to run. Further investigation is warranted.

In addition to C1/C2 it has a transfer rate test, disc information, raw command support, and extra tests for ATER and DVD Tilt Analysis. I don't know what all these do, but overall I'd say this tool is quite promising and I look forward to its further development and to playing with what it already includes.

By the way, this appears to be another tool for LiteOn owners only. It was written by Karr Wang of the Test Department PDC Division of LiteOn IT Corporation.

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Postby MikeTR on Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:49 am

This thread cfitz?: http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9545

Looks nice. Tried it, but it's Lite-On only. Not that I mind, but I'd prefer a program that is not drive dependent, since my Lite-On is in another computer.
I wonder what the new PlexTools and CD Speed will bring us. By then we'll have us yet another 'which-is-best-program' discussion :P
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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:59 am

Do we know the origen of this program? Is it another WSES-like "leaked" internal utility?
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:27 am

MikeTR wrote:This thread cfitz?: http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9545

Yes, that's it! Thanks MikeTR. I knew it had been posted fairly recentlyl but I just couldn't find it.

MikeTR wrote:I wonder what the new PlexTools and CD Speed will bring us.

Yes, I am looking forward to see if the rumored support materializes. Unfortunately, it is reasonably certain that if/when PlexTools supports C1/C2 error measurement, it will only do so for Plextor drives, and then maybe even only for a limited set of Plextor drives. Which I guess leaves CD Speed, as usual, as the great hope. :wink: Of course, since reading C1 errors is not a standard operation supported by mmc commands, for example, I doubt it will ever be universal and support will be on a drive-by-drive basis.

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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:34 am

rdgrimes wrote:Do we know the origen of this program? Is it another WSES-like "leaked" internal utility?

It certainly appears to be, at least on the surface. Here is what is written in the "About" pane:

Company : LITE-ON IT Corporation

Dept. : Testing Dept. PDC Devision

Author : Karr Wang

Rev. : 1.1.0

Warning : This computer program is protected by
copyright law and international treaties.
unauthorized reproduction or distribution
of this program , or any portion of it ,
may result in severe civil and criminal
penalties , and will be prosecuted to the
maximum extent possible under the law.

Driver : ASPI

------------------------------------------------
This tool is still under development , so if you
have any comment or question, welcome to give me
a reply. Thanks in advance.


It also has hyperlinks to www.liteonit.com.tw built into it.

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:37 am

Next question, since it appears to have some DVD-related functions has anybody tried it out with DVD?
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 11:04 am

rdgrimes wrote:Next question, since it appears to have some DVD-related functions has anybody tried it out with DVD?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I tried testing a CD-R in my 166S DVD-ROM. In addition to that, here is a test of a pressed, single layer DVD movie in my 166S:

Image

I'm not familiar with PI/PO (Parity Inner / Parity Outer), but I would guess they are analogous in some way to C1/C2 errors on a CD.

Also, I don't own a DVD burner, but interestingly KProbe has a "Tilt Analysis" test that reports:

This function only support LITE-ON DVD Writer

We know a LiteOn DVD burner is in the works, but it is interesting to see that test functions are already developed for it. I suppose there is a good chance that LiteOn engineers are using KProbe to evaluate samples of the new burner.

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:48 pm

Very interesting development here with this program. It has the earmarks of something that is designed for release to the public. Very well designed too.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:56 pm

rdgrimes wrote:Very interesting development here with this program. It has the earmarks of something that is designed for release to the public. Very well designed too.

I agree. As I said, it is promising. I've had a few instances of it not wanting to test a disc (getting stuck with bad seeks and such) so that I had to reset something (restart the program, eject and re-insert the disc, etc.) to get it to go. But it has behaved pretty well overall. And it has nice features.

By the way, I haven't had similar problems such as the drive getting stuck with bad seeks when using CD Doctor, but have seen such issues from time to time with WSES. That would indicate, not at all surprisingly, that it is closer to WSES than to CD Doctor. Presumably it shares WSES's lineage.

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:02 pm

The "save" function isn't working here. the BMP file appears to be corrupted.
I've had CDDr fail with high error rates and failed seeks.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:29 pm

rdgrimes wrote:The "save" function isn't working here. the BMP file appears to be corrupted.

Well that is frustrating. :x I wonder why? I haven't had any problems (running on Windows 2000) as evidenced by the test results plots I posted. What are you using to view the .bmp files? Have you tried alternate viewers?

rdgrimes wrote:I've had CDDr fail with high error rates and failed seeks.

Failed to even start a test or start in the middle of the CD, even though the disc is good quality with low error rates? Or get stuck while in the middle of testing a CD with very high error rates? With CD Doctor I've experienced the latter, but not the former. With WSES and KProbe I've experienced both.

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:33 pm

Photoshop and Photodraw report it as corrupt, I can open it in paint. (win2000)
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:50 pm

Odd. Photoshop's little brother Photoshop Elements works for me, as does Paint Shop Pro, Microsoft Paint, and IE. Oh well, just call it a "quirk". :wink:

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:02 pm

the link is dead!!
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Postby MediumRare on Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:30 pm

rdgrimes wrote:the link is dead!!

I'm glad I picked it up this afternoon !!! This looks like an interesting tool.

I also tried a CDR in my DVD-Drive (LiteOn LTD163), but the results had no resemblence to the scan in the burner. Within the normal scope of variations, the results for 3 disks I compared on my LTR48246S are essentially the same as with CD Doctor.
I do have an issue with the time-axis:
- the numerical values are hard to associate with ticks on the axis (and differ between C1 and C2 graphs)
- it looks like part of the end is missing. This may explain the missing C2 errors in your example, cfitz.

These are things that can be fixed, though.

I had no problems reading the BMP's with MS-Paint (XP) or with Corel PhotoPaint Vers.8.

The comparison makes me appreciate several things that CD-Dr. does well:
- add caption to graph
- report on maximum and mean error counts
- save graph as PNG

Can someone point me to some information regarding the options under "Raw Cmd"? These seem to go well beyond something that's planned to release for Joe Public.

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:36 pm

I emailed the author, as I don't know if he was the one who posted this. I'm afraid that this is another case of a "leaked" program like WSES. Nevertheless, the cat's out of the bag now!

Re: the BMP files, I can paste the window shot into Photoshop, but none of my image programs (other than Paint), will open the saved BMP file.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:24 pm

MediumRare wrote:I do have an issue with the time-axis:
- the numerical values are hard to associate with ticks on the axis (and differ between C1 and C2 graphs)
- it looks like part of the end is missing. This may explain the missing C2 errors in your example, cfitz.

Ah! Good observation, MediumRare. 8) I think that may well be the case and would explain both the missing C2 errors at the end of the test as well as what I thought were C1 errors lower than what CD Doctor and WSES report. I was specifically looking at the end and noting that the peaks were not as high in the K’s Probe test, but didn't notice I wasn't comparing the same minute mark in the CD. I just assumed the end of the chart was the end of the CD.

As it turns out, the missing end of the graph is due to user error. :oops: Unlike CD Doctor which automatically tests to the end of the data on the disc and draws the graph appropriately, K’s Probe, like WSES, requires that you explicitly set the limits for the test. This can be a useful feature, but in this case I blindly and mistakenly accepted the default selections and ran the test, which meant that it stopped short at about the 74-minute mark.

There are two ways to specify the length of the test, MSF (minutes, seconds, frame) and LBA (logical block address). After reading your post, I checked MSF, set the end mark to 79:59:59, and re-ran the test. This time I got results that match what I expected. Here they are in both linear and, for easier comparison to CD Doctor results posted earlier, log scales:

Image

Image

MediumRare wrote:The comparison makes me appreciate several things that CD-Dr. does well:
- add caption to graph
- report on maximum and mean error counts
- save graph as PNG

Yes, these are handy features that K's Probe lacks. But the graphics issues can be worked around with an external graphics program. And the average and maximum can be calculated from the “Total Count” figures and visual inspection of the graphs. These workarounds are not as convenient as CD Doctor’s automated features, but they aren't fatal flaws, either.

One thing I noticed is that when K's Probe reaches an unreadable sector it seems to immediately abort the test at that point, while CD Doctor attempts to push on past the tough area and will still produce a graph with data beyond the unreadable region, albeit with blank areas where the sectors could not be read at speed.

MediumRare wrote:Can someone point me to some information regarding the options under "Raw Cmd"? These seem to go well beyond something that's planned to release for Joe Public.

The intent of some of them (like read ATIP) seem straightforward, but how to interpret the raw binary data returned does require additional knowledge. I don't have to time to explore this now, but if I ever come up with anything I will share it.

MediumRare wrote:I'm glad I picked it up this afternoon !!! This looks like an interesting tool.

Strike while the iron is hot... :wink:

I'm also glad I grabbed it while I had the chance and now have another tool with its own interesting capabilities. I may not switch from CD Doctor for everyday testing of C1/C2 errors (as you note, CD Doctor has some nice convenience features), but I will continue to play with K's probe and try to learn more about it.

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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:31 pm

rdgrimes wrote:I emailed the author, as I don't know if he was the one who posted this. I'm afraid that this is another case of a "leaked" program like WSES. Nevertheless, the cat's out of the bag now!

If it is leaked, which could well be, it didn't stay leaked at that location for long. Too bad. But, let's be glad we grabbed that cat as soon as it poked its head out of the bag. :wink:

Please let us know if Mr. Wang replies.

rdgrimes wrote:Re: the BMP files, I can paste the window shot into Photoshop, but none of my image programs (other than Paint), will open the saved BMP file.

I just don't understand that. They open fine in every program I try. I wonder what could be wrong with them. What all programs have you tried beyond what you already listed?

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Postby rdgrimes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:05 pm

Tried all my publishing programs, Photoshop elements, Photodraw. All return file errors. Not a problem, just a curiosity. I know there are more than one type of BMP files, maybe this one is a bit differnet? If I open it with paint, then re-save as a 24-bit BMP, it's fine. Weird.
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Postby MediumRare on Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:33 am

cfitz wrote:As it turns out, the missing end of the graph is due to user error. :oops: Unlike CD Doctor which automatically tests to the end of the data on the disc and draws the graph appropriately, K?s Probe, like WSES, requires that you explicitly set the limits for the test. This can be a useful feature, but in this case I blindly and mistakenly accepted the default selections and ran the test, which meant that it stopped short at about the 74-minute mark.

Right !!!! I'd planned on selecting a specific interval to test- this can save some time if you only want to look at a critical section- but then forgot.

I haven't gotten around to trying WSES yet, so I wasn't aware of that similarity.

I do hope that something official will leave the LiteOn labs on this front- maybe Plextor's initiative will encourage them to do so.

And then (as you mentioned) there's the hope in the next version of CD-Speed for all drives.

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Postby MikeTR on Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:33 am

cfitz wrote:
rdgrimes wrote:I emailed the author, as I don't know if he was the one who posted this. I'm afraid that this is another case of a "leaked" program like WSES. Nevertheless, the cat's out of the bag now!

If it is leaked, which could well be, it didn't stay leaked at that location for long. Too bad. But, let's be glad we grabbed that cat as soon as it poked its head out of the bag. :wink:
cfitz


Judging from the interface and the 'about' page, it looks to me like an intentional leak. I don't think it is a coincidence it found it's way to these pages. Limiting the lifetime of the link ensures limiting the exposure to some 'more experienced' users. It's like the ultimate beta-testing going on right here. I bet the developer(s) are reading along with us.

So, keep on going cfitz..... 8)
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Postby Abacus on Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:16 am

The link to the file is dead .... :(
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Postby Abacus on Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:39 am

cfitz:
I found a hidden feature !
That is , if you click and drag with the left mouse button to
select a rectangle , the chart will "zoom in"
On the contrary , it will restore.

And if you click and drag with right mouse button , the chart
will be shift.

Right ??
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